Yes or No.Craft Mastery Limit.

[Amineri]

No, you do not need a degree to talk about a game.

Yes, you do need to be somewhat informed to talk about a game economy (that mimics RL economy). Much like you need to be somewhat informed about game mechanics to talk about them, too.

This thread steps outside merely game mechanics. Crafting mastery has nothing to do with game mechanics and all to do with game economy.

You can still say what you think, of course, but don't think that opinion has any weight on what should be done.

I find it interesting that you bring up the point of 'economics', in particular mimicking RL economy. In RL economy there is no "rule" or "limit" that says that once you have one college degree, you are then completely constrained from obtaining another. Instead, the limits are based on time invested, and cost/benefit of continuing training vs. practicing the learned skill in order to earn an income.

I think that the issue at stake here revolves around "artificial" and "arbitrary-feeling" limits placed upon character growth. I don't argue that some form of change needs to occur to encourage crafting specialization. I feel that place artificial limiters in place is contrary to the game's philosophy. There are other designs that can encourage specialization without such a mechanic.

As an example, a mechanic of branching craft specialization could be introduced. Within clothcrafting, after rank 50, clothcrafting as a general skill could not be ranked up. Instead, crafting body pieces, hats, gloves, cloth, yarn, lures, etc would each be ranked up separately. Perhaps this could occur to rank 60 at which point another sub-branching could occur.

This system does not place an arbitrary restriction upon players. It simply models an ever-increasing time commitment required to fully master each craft. (The mechanic where-in I become better at making vintage robes because I made 12,000 pieces of wool-cloth is somewhat counter-intuitive, imho.) If structured properly, the amount of time required for a single character to master all branches of all crafts could be prohibitively long, on the order of years. However, learning in depth to master a single facet of a craft could be accomplished fairly easily.

My $0.02

[darkstarpoet1]

No, you do not need a degree to talk about a game.

Yes, you do need to be somewhat informed to talk about a game economy (that mimics RL economy). Much like you need to be somewhat informed about game mechanics to talk about them, too.

This thread steps outside merely game mechanics. Crafting mastery has nothing to do with game mechanics and all to do with game economy.

You can still say what you think, of course, but don't think that opinion has any weight on what should be done.

actually according to basic economics 101 you are wrong. the fewer the people that can do things the higher the cost will become. it's called supply and demand. if the supply falls(due to mastery in that craft) and the demand rises(due to new players in the game) then the price will automatically raise. that is not how you revive a struggling economy.

you revive it by getting more people into the system and using the system not taking people that have taken the time to level a craft out of it. if you think that mastery will not keep people from making high end gear then you are mistaken. if an item takes a r40 class people already go to the r50 for it instead of the 40 because they are more likely to succeed. if you add mastery then those people will stop using the regular 50 crafters and only use the mastered ones. those people will, in turn, raise their prices because there will be less people that can make the item.

[SHJcules]

Well, I won't pretend I know more then the average gent here about economics, but I do know Animation. And I know that if every modeler-texturer-concept/lighting/storyboard artist etc also could animate as well as me, well I would have a really good time finding work! Much like that industry, I think MMOs should encourage specialization mastery and teamwork towards greater goals that one should not be able to accomplish alone.

Also, XI had a limit system on crafts and it seemed to work out well enough. I would think that the devs in charge of its implementation knew at least a thing or two about MMO economics.

[Amineri]

Also, XI had a limit system on crafts and it seemed to work out well enough. I would think that the devs in charge of its implementation knew at least a thing or two about MMO economics.

An issue I have with that comparison is that FFXI was not structured around crafting being a class in its own right. Placing a restriction across DoL is, philosophically, very little different from placing a restriction across DoW.

[Razor]

actually according to basic economics 101 you are wrong. the fewer the people that can do things the higher the cost will become. it's called supply and demand. if the supply falls(due to mastery in that craft) and the demand rises(due to new players in the game) then the price will automatically raise. that is not how you revive a struggling economy.

you revive it by getting more people into the system and using the system not taking people that have taken the time to level a craft out of it. if you think that mastery will not keep people from making high end gear then you are mistaken. if an item takes a r40 class people already go to the r50 for it instead of the 40 because they are more likely to succeed. if you add mastery then those people will stop using the regular 50 crafters and only use the mastered ones. those people will, in turn, raise their prices because there will be less people that can make the item.

While many of the points you make are valid, you are missing a very big issue currently. Money also changes hands through the making of submaterials. If everyone can make every submaterial they need for those high up recipes they do not need to depend on anyone else and therfore makes no economic impact until the final sale of the item. In business there is a concept called vertical consolidation which is what many players are doing, creating a system where they do not need to depend on any outside assistance. While at the end of the day its good for profit it hurts all the other developing crafters because there are now few submaterials for sale to people. For someone like me as a developing leatherworker ive had to follow suit and start my own low level vertical consolidation just to make my recipes. There will always be the exchange of finished goods between players for money; the economy will survive that way. However, crafter to crafter is also a huge part of the economy as many crafters are also players themselves.

Edit: By "players" i meant DoW/DoM just to make that separation from those that exclusively craft/gather

[Zkieve]

Well, I won't pretend I know more then the average gent here about economics, but I do know Animation. And I know that if every modeler-texturer-concept/lighting/storyboard artist etc also could animate as well as me, well I would have a really good time finding work! Much like that industry, I think MMOs should encourage specialization mastery and teamwork towards greater goals that one should not be able to accomplish alone.

Also, XI had a limit system on crafts and it seemed to work out well enough. I would think that the devs in charge of its implementation knew at least a thing or two about MMO economics.

To be honest that is my personal problem with this system.
if it goes the ffxi route.

other types well meh i dont care so much.
Why? because the only real restriction was paying for a mule (wich it gives an advantage to those who dont care to pay extra to have more than 1 maxed whatever.)
Everyone who did want to have multiple crafts , payed and rerolled.
Without limitation the only difference is SE aint geting that extra $$.
I did it , and i sucked it up on ffxi, and since day one i was happy i didnt have to do it again,

If the system wont be like ffxi´s then whatever.But i rather make my stand now rather than later.

I dont care about game economics , at all.I simply do not wish to pay more if i decide to have more than 1 craft like it happened in 11.

Like i said on op is all based on pure speculation , but i like to say NO to paying more.
Before they introduce that option.Idc if affects game economy or whatever to be honest.Even if i think that makes no difference.

You dont need to max everything, this system only affects those who want to max 2-3 , and that is pretty comun in small self- suplyed linkshells.


edit: well lets talk about economy since is a good topic actually.
also , ffxi economy alright ? yea sure 4 years after , i still have nightmares of paying 20m for a scorpion harness becouse the crafters were overpricing everything and there was a tremendous inflation on items and next 2 weeks was under 1 million.

The economy ONLY did stabilize when there was hundreds of crafters maxed.

if they limit it , its gonna go to hell and back until enough people can supply the big demand that limiting brings with.hand full of Crafters monopolizing the whole markets , is this what you want ?

The problem right now is that there is not enough "items" .that is all.Everyone crafting the same 5 synths per craft.

edit:to resume the w"alloftext"

limiting leads to a handful of crafters controlling the market.For a few years.
We need new players,overpriced items is not noobie friendly.

[SHJcules]

An issue I have with that comparison is that FFXI was not structured around crafting being a class in its own right. Placing a restriction across DoL is, philosophically, very little different from placing a restriction across DoW.

You bring up a really good point! If someone picks up XIV for the love of crafting and they wish to do it 80% of their game time, then it is a really bad restriction. Whereas XI it was always a side-hobby. I will simply go back to my original goal of less restrictions, just make it really difficult to master a craft lol.

I guess it is just in the hands of the devs as to what kind of world they wish to forge Eorzea into

[DNO]

I can not believe after two popular threads and the votes being the same people are still debating this.

Most people want freedom. I can not find a good reason why people do not want freedom.

[Tibian]

Can we get an official team response if crafts will be limited to one, and if we've already leveled some, how will we be compensated?

If limits are imposed, can we just get compensation in the form of SP that goes directly into another battle class?

[Razor]

Can we get an official team response if crafts will be limited to one, and if we've already leveled some, how will we be compensated?

If limits are imposed, can we just get compensation in the form of SP that goes directly into another battle class?

I extremely doubt they would do that in the first place. As cruel as SE can be sometimes, they aren't (that) evil. If anything I could see it being either:

1. Come level cap raising time, you can only take 1 craft past r50
or 2. Some other kind of binding to one craft where you can still level them freely, but you will be given advanced recipes/etc to your chosen craft.

If they are even considering this, which we don't even know, I'd prefer option 2 but option 1 wouldn't keep me up at night.