I think its time BRD get some loving

[KitanaiKoneko]

It's not a buff when asking for a debuff to be reduced or removed. A buff is going above and beyond a baseline, a debuff is forcing something below that baseline. All the removal of the debuff or lowering of the consequences for the debuff does is merely bring something back up to the baseline and not boosting it above aka not a buff. Lets not forget the songs themselves buff everyone else above that baseline, there is no reason to debuff the caster/user for giving everyone else that advantage when even without it our DPS would rarely be near the top of the DPS charts for (most) BRD's.

It would not make them more or less mandatory in any sense whatsoever by removal of the debuff as they are brought along not for their DPS overall but for the boost to everyone else's DPS and survivability. If it was for the DPS as a major factor then that spot would not be filled with a BRD with or without that debuff, it is for the songs and as it stands currently the only person who suffers from the songs is the BRD and no-one else because they are being punished for helping everyone else whom they are boosting.

To me anyone who is arguing for the continued debuff is selfish, they benefit from the bards songs yet want to keep punishing the bard for helping and boosting your survivability and DPS. It comes across to me like "help boost and buff us bard but haha, f*** you bard for doing so." I personally am not asking for a buff, I am asking to decrease or remove the debuff, there is a big difference between those two things but the impact of that difference is not on everyone else or the current state of the game, it only really impacts the bard him or herself.

Your first paragraph, what??
When you buff a class you make it stronger. When you nerf a class you make it weaker. Since the damage penalty on paeon/ballad are not removeable while singing, removing the damage penalty is a buff. No amount of fancy talking will change that.

Second/third paragraph, what??
You don't win a fight by magically having a certain amount of DPS. You win a fight by working together as a team. And for some reason every FCoB team brings a Bard. There is no class that is wanted as much as Bard. Warrior and Paladin are nearly equal after their buff in 2.1, Monk, Dragoon, Ninja and Black Mage are all very close when it comes to dps. But why do people bring a bard? Because without a Bard, in the long fights that FCoB has, dps (with the exception of Black Mage) can and most likely will run out of TP, or MP for healers if things get dangerous. Bard's role in the team, no matter how much you may argue that they are not a "support" class since the "support" class doesn't exist, is to support the group. Otherwise they would not have penalties on paeon/ballad and they would do just as much damage as everyone else. And when all the classes do the same dps in 95% of situations, why bother having more than one class to begin with?

No no no no just NO. For gods sake, I dont know what schmuck started saying this but it needs to stop... period. We play a song for casters that increases their damage, that damage is not ours, it is still very much theirs. This is like saying the ballad we play for healers, which allows them to keep the dps alive longer and continue to dps.. so a part of that damage should be ours AMIRIGHT?>???

...

That ~15% bonus damage casters deal during foe's requiem is theirs? But what happens when you stop singing? That ~15% extra damage they were doing suddenly disappears. Sing again and it comes back. You are causing that damage to happen. It is your damage. You performing an action causes that damage to appear.

[Snugglebutt]

...And when all the classes do the same dps in 95% of situations, why bother having more than one class to begin with?

It is the opposite of what you claim, when classes are more equal in DPS then more people are willing to play other classes. If for example monk and ninja had equal damage output then not so many people would pick monk over ninja, if summoners and black mages had equal damage output as another example then the players who play those would be more equally spread out. If paladin and warriors had equal survivability the quantity of players on each would be more equal.

If one class has a statistical/numerical advantage like with DPS over another that leads to more people picking that class with the advantage because not many people want to play something which they know puts them at a disadvantage. So I very much disagree with your claim above. Your confusing class variety coming from appearance, skill sets animations, gear style, lore and other such things with if go by your example in which you claim variety based on DPS then it is the opposite effect to what you claim.

That ~15% bonus damage casters deal during foe's requiem is theirs? But what happens when you stop singing? That ~15% extra damage they were doing suddenly disappears. Sing again and it comes back. You are causing that damage to happen. It is your damage. You performing an action causes that damage to appear.

There is not a single player I have EVER come across who has ever said the boosted damage they did shown in their parsers and such was the bards DPS or damage. So I'm sorry but no-one ever says the increase in damage they do on their alternative class because of a bard song was the bards damage, they all claim it is their DPS and damage output. They might possibly say they did (x) amount of damage while a bard played something but they will always say that damage was theirs and never the bards.

[SinisterIsBack]

That ~15% bonus damage casters deal during foe's requiem is theirs? But what happens when you stop singing? That ~15% extra damage they were doing suddenly disappears. Sing again and it comes back. You are causing that damage to happen. It is your damage. You performing an action causes that damage to appear.

So me playing paeon means I get a portion of a melee's damage also then?
Playing ballad means Im gaining some healing too?

Buffing someone DOES NOT = The Damage gain is suddenly yours. Does it get added to my parse? newp, sure doesn't. That is quite possibly the dumbest concept I have ever heard.

A buff is a buff is a buff -- the concepts of buffs have not changed, nor will they ever.

Asking to remove the penalty from paeon and ballad also DOES NOT = bards OP -- we arent playing paeon and ballad 24/7

[KitanaiKoneko]

So me playing paeon means I get a portion of a melee's damage also then?
Playing ballad means Im gaining some healing too?

Buffing someone DOES NOT = The Damage gain is suddenly yours. Does it get added to my parse? newp, sure doesn't. That is quite possibly the dumbest concept I have ever heard.

A buff is a buff is a buff -- the concepts of buffs have not changed, nor will they ever.

Asking to remove the penalty from paeon and ballad also DOES NOT = bards OP -- we arent playing paeon and ballad 24/7

Why should we stop the strawman there?
Healers actually do ALL of the dps AND all of the tanking in any fight with unavoidable damage, since they keep the party alive, right?

[SinisterIsBack]

Why should we stop the strawman there?
Healers actually do ALL of the dps AND all of the tanking in any fight with unavoidable damage, since they keep the party alive, right?

I'm merely pointing out that your concept of a buff is... well, wrong. Im sure you understood the point I was making, obviously.

The concept of buffs has never changed, why it does in this game all of a sudden is beyond me. Thats for you to explain...

so don't sing Paeon, let's see how your parse relative to them gets at that point. your only objective is to get your parse number closer to the other DPS right?

Clearly jumping in the end of a conversation without even reading. Try again, read slower, and then come back!

[SendohJin]

Buffing someone DOES NOT = The Damage gain is suddenly yours. Does it get added to my parse? newp, sure doesn't. That is quite possibly the dumbest concept I have ever heard.

so don't sing Paeon, let's see how your parse relative to them gets at that point. your only objective is to get your parse number closer to the other DPS right?

[Parodine]

So me playing paeon means I get a portion of a melee's damage also then?
Playing ballad means Im gaining some healing too?

Buffing someone DOES NOT = The Damage gain is suddenly yours. Does it get added to my parse? newp, sure doesn't. That is quite possibly the dumbest concept I have ever heard.

A buff is a buff is a buff -- the concepts of buffs have not changed, nor will they ever.

Asking to remove the penalty from paeon and ballad also DOES NOT = bards OP -- we arent playing paeon and ballad 24/7

This distinction is so dumb. No, it is not your LITERAL damage, lord. But it is damage that wouldn't have happened had you not used a support ability. The same for Trick Attack. Sure, not your literal dmg, but the vul down that you bring is technically increasing everyone's damage, which wouldn't have happened without you. But if you're glued to your parser I'm sure that's not particularly impressive.

[SinisterIsBack]

This distinction is so dumb. No, it is not your LITERAL damage, lord. But it is damage that wouldn't have happened had you not used a support ability. The same for Trick Attack. Sure, not your literal dmg, but the vul down that you bring is technically increasing everyone's damage, which wouldn't have happened without you. But if you're glued to your parser I'm sure that's not particularly impressive.

That extra damage others produce because of Foe Requiem can be considered your damage.

That ~15% bonus damage casters deal during foe's requiem is theirs? But what happens when you stop singing? That ~15% extra damage they were doing suddenly disappears. Sing again and it comes back. You are causing that damage to happen. It is your damage. You performing an action causes that damage to appear.

Tell that to these people. Again, read what was being replied too first. I know what foe's is, and does. It's just a buff and to bring it into an equation that it should count towards a bards dps when talking about removing a minor penalty is dumb.

[Sapphic]

Buffing someone DOES NOT = The Damage gain is suddenly yours. Does it get added to my parse? newp, sure doesn't. That is quite possibly the dumbest concept I have ever heard.

That is why Parses have never and never will be a full true and accurate representation to what someone brings to the party. That the damage that has been boosted by the BRD shows on a parser for the BRD is irrelevant and shows on edimensional thinking inregards to what they bring to the party. No BRD or no Paeons means no increase in the overall parties damage. That is what support abilities do as opposed to self buffs.

So yes it is yours, your the reason why the overall party DPS increased. Because with out it there is no DPS increase

[Airashii]

That is why Parses have never and never will be a full true and accurate representation to what someone brings to the party. That the damage that has been boosted by the BRD shows on a parser for the BRD is irrelevant and shows on edimensional thinking inregards to what they bring to the party. No BRD or no Paeons means no increase in the overall parties damage. That is what support abilities do as opposed to self buffs.

So yes it is yours, your the reason why the overall party DPS increased. Because with out it there is no DPS increase

Except, that would also mean, the 10% piercing damage from dragoons I get as a bard, goes to them. 10% of slashing damage from NIN/WAR would compliment each other and the paladin.. The argument still lies in the fact, it's a utility people provide to other jobs in your party. Generally, people self buff their damage in this game. It's not OUR damage. We're just providing them with a utility to do more damage. Just like other jobs provide utility to do more damage themselves.