I think its time BRD get some loving

[DoubleD]

just what are you trying this time... ? dungeons and 24 men raids are designed so that any composition can clear them. No enrage so sluggish groups have a chance nevertheless (less true in WoD but still not hard to succeed there). No mechanics which require coordination (again, slight exception in WoD this time) except maybe not being braindead (people not killing skellies in LotA first boss..) but that should be a given. One could walk in a 200ish dps party and still clear everything in this game besides Coil. Your "argument" is irrelevant.

(also 20% isn\\\\'t a "large" debuff. You could cancel that if you wanted by using one of your buffs. Bard is the class with the largest pool of damage buffs after all.)

Thanks. My point exactly. Please try playing tank or healer in a 24 man raid with 15 bards and see how long it would take compared to 15 dragoon.

[Gardes]

Thanks. My point exactly. Please try playing tank or healer in a 24 man raid with 15 bards and see how long it would take compared to 15 dragoon.

Doesn't matter the class composition imho. Reality is that majority of the wod df players don't really put in as much effort as they should be. It's not an 8 man trial where you can filter and pick as you wish according to your own criteria. Go ahead, ask someone to parse 10 wod runs or so for you. You'll get a handful of excellent dps and the rest just plummets like a cliff.

You give me 15 good bards that have been told that this is a wod clear time competition with another group and tell them it's televised or streamed during yoship's live letters or something like that (no prize mentioned) and I give you 15 dps with any composition you want but they are picked randomly from wherever and never get told that they're in a competition and being watched (basically run of the mill wod run). I'm confident that my team of roided up and pumped up navy seals would beat you to the punch.

Before you turn this around on me trying to compare my team of bards with your same mindset 15 dragoons, I'm gonna point out that my team doesn't just happen like a common occurence in wod. That's my point, really.

[Kuwagami]

Thanks. My point exactly. Please try playing tank or healer in a 24 man raid with 15 bards and see how long it would take compared to 15 dragoon.

Considering the average player in i110-120 gear is around 250-300 dps regardless of the job, I'd say the difference would be around 5 minutes max. And not always in the favor of the DRG team.

I don't know what your experience is, but my 380 dps DRG (parsed on T8 and T9) is already above what the average main DRG can do in almost every situation. Rare are he DRGs bothering to use any DoT. Most use disembowel then 1-2-3 spam until heavy thrust falls off or they need to reapply disembowel.

While most bards use their DoTs and their skills in the natural order as they don't have much skills to worry about. There are a few that are dumb enough to spam straight shot, but way less than you think.

Even in dungeons, the quickest runs are usually :
2 BLM > 2 mages > BLM + BRD > BRD + SMN > 2 BRDs > everything else

because bards' AoEs are better than DRG or MNK ones thanks to their insane burst, allowing to burn down more efficiently big groups of enemies.


Now if you only consider top players, 15 bards would take around 10-15 minutes more than 15 not-BRDs maybe. But the odds of having a team full of such competent people is so close to zero that it isn't even worth considering it

BRDs will need an adjustment come later on since I foresee SE moving away from them being a necessity as more classes enter the picture. However, they are still quite relevant so as of now, not needed. Plenty of BRDs on the top end do some really good damage as well provided not forced to use songs 24/7.

machinist is supposed to be an alternative to bard in the future. We'll see how it goes

[Havenchild]

BRDs will need an adjustment come later on since I foresee SE moving away from them being a necessity as more classes enter the picture. However, they are still quite relevant so as of now, not needed. Plenty of BRDs on the top end do some really good damage as well provided not forced to use songs 24/7.

[rappa]

Bard damage had been nerfed because back in 2.0 there was no reason to bring anything else in a group. They were close to top dps, huge utility, no drawbacks, etc... They nerfed the damage. ONCE.
it is NORMAL that a bard will never reach other dps's numbers. They add way more to the table on other aspects to make it fair if they had better damages. What's more, the end game encounters are designed to be made with a bard in the team. If you struggle with a bard, then your team as a whole has a problem. It's NOT because bard's damage is lower than the others, but because your whole team has a lower dps than expected by the devs.

Also, you have not been nerfed more with i115, then i135. The scaling is the same for other dps and bards. You have less at start, so you gain less at each increase. Overall, your dps stays at the same % behind the other dps, and that's (once again) normal. of course the bigger the highest numbers are, the bigger the gap will grow. It doesn't mean you're nerfed more.

Wrong, i send you to my post

Allagan bow 42 WD
Allagan melee 46 WD

+4 difference

High allagan bow 48 WD
High allawan melee 53 WD

+5 difference

Dreadwyrm bow 52 WD
dreadwyrm melee 58 WD

+6 difference

]--- Each patch, the WD from bards is more lower than melees ---[

95 => 115 WD from bards was increased 6 points
95 => 115 WD from melees was increased 7 points

115 => 135 WD from bards was increased 4 points
115 => 135 WD from melees was increased 5 points

The increase was the same, yeah but read below

***** The importance of Weapon Damage *****
// Maybe the stats could change i haven't time to recheck the post in reddit about new stats. //

One weapon damage equals to:
"8.73" STR on MNK.
"9.153" DEX on BRD.
"8.732" STR on DRG.
"6.625" INT on BLM/SMN

monk 115 weapon gives 53 x 8.73 462.69
brd 115 weapon gives 48 x 9.153 439.344

Difference: 23.35

monk 135 weapon gives 58 x 8.73 506.34
brd 135 weapon gives 52 x 9.153 475.956

Difference: 30.384

If the next progression would be 155 ilvl and following the curve, melee gains 3 WD more and bards only 2.

monk 155 weapon gives 61 x 8.73 532.53
brd 155 weapon gives 54 x 9.153 494.262

Difference: 38.268

It's all numbers, we are losing more dps each patch is release, you could see it or not, but the numbers are there.

Atm, the reason to bring one bard is because the "what if...", a healer die, or a melee die, but when you are pushing your limits, bards is low than others dps, maybe share the pos with summoners.

If you don't need manasong, why may one bard take one spot? Take a ninja as TP station and the dps will be more greatful than bard because you don't lose 20% playing the song.

[Kuwagami]

snip

do you realize you're ranting about a 1% loss ?

bard's WD weight is 95% of monk's one at i115, 94% at i135, would be 93% at i155 if you're correct on the curve. However, WD gets a % boost each time (14% for i115 compared to i95, 9% for i135). Even a 5% boost for i155 (so +3 WD for melee) would neat a +3 WD for bards (2.51 rounded) which would actually increase bard's stat weight and their dps compared to others.

55 x 9.153 = 503.415

Difference : 29.115

the difference in dps isn't mainly from WD but from the difference in skill's potency (no combo/positionnals as a bard) which makes up for their mobility and utility.


As for "why bard and not ninja", I'll raise Foe and mass TP regen.
If your composition has already 2 melees (no ninja), the TP regen will be tricky due to the solo target/2min CD of Goad. You might have to wait for server ticks at some point, resulting in a general dps loss that may not make it up vs a singing bard allowing going all out. Plus the 14% damage loss of your mage.
In a double mage composition, you'll lose 14% for both mages, but have an easier time on melees. Though healers will also lose the benefit of Foe if they can manage to dps (not granted to every group).

All in all, bringing ninja over a bard may be better for individual parsing, but as a group, it's a case-by-case issue. Some top end groups may (and surely will) do better. The average group will perform equal at best, worse in the most probable case.

[rappa]

Goad is 3 mins CD.

A ninja can handle 2 melees in all encounters without lose dps. Provide a 7% global dps thanks to Trick attack over foe requiem that only buff damage caster. Usually you have a blm or smn, and the scholar, and not all the time by MP resource.

You use goad on monk at a few seconds to start the combat. 2 mins after that he use Invigorate.
The other melee or a warrior dps, also a bard, receive the goad 3 mins later.
At this point, dps have enough tp regeneration to end the encounter or start again the goad rotation.

[Ninjasmine]

I don't get it.
Say SE actually listens to you and removes the penalty. You're still doing low damage compared to the rest of the dps, so what changes? Or do one better and you're doing burst damage like a blm(around 500dps) and no damage penalty. Now what? Since you don't use songs in 4 or 8 mans normal content, or in 24 man content(according to a lot of you), you're not getting a debuff anyway, so your damage isn't lowered.

From what I've read so far, just seems like those in support of this just want to do high damage so you can be even more wanted. There have been some people saying "oh but a bard isn't mandatory in regular content!" Forgetting that besides healers and tanks, no other dps is mandatory either. For roulettes most do it with a blm cuz it's faster, guess melee should start a topic about it too? No one class is going to be used for everything, so just favoring one class to be at the top is asinine.

[Izsha]

Bard has a guaranteed slot in all endgame content, therefore it needs a buff.

#OfficialForumLogic

[ChriZirhC]

no changes needed on our kit. just stop nerfing our WD. lol