Nin TP Increase: Too Much?

[Pluvia]

Wow, people really underestimate Trick Attack here... Who cares if MNK has slightly higher DPS, when NIN brings more overall DPS to the group.

just looking at the individual DPS is stupid really, cause a raid group doesn't care if someone has higher DPS than the other, all that matters is that group have as much DPS as possible. The NIN nerf makes this more balanced.

MNK and NIN will bring similar DPS and Utility to the group, and lets just hope DRG can follow them too...

Let me give you a scenario and hell it doesn't even work out like this lets say your raid does 2400 dps total before trick attack after trick attack its 2438.4 roughly and that's if everything ends up perfect which it never does there are times when people aren't hitting the same target, bards singing so they're doing less damage during trick attack and many other variable you have to look at during the fight people vastly Overate trick attack its not as great as people think nothing will change monk still does the most damage and hell even better when there is double monk it will not change unless for some god knows reason SE buffs dragoon past monk which is like asking to win the lottery since they for some reason love to believe that monk is SUPER Hard compared to the other melees which they're not.

So as of now and probably till expansion MNK/MNK. Honestly I don't even get why they did some of these changing it barely changes the single target damage was more of a nerf to AoE and Goad. TP wise I understand and it may be too much we don't know for sure time will tell after the patch when we can see the balance between the 3 melees without any of them getting goad because honestly there isn't any reason to use goad unless you're in these 3 situations 1. someone died and needs tp. 2. warrior mass pulling in dungeons. 3. bard is having to multi dot.

[Krr]

Thank god those poor nins who were challenging the mnk/mnk meta got put in their place. The incredibly deep and skilled gameplay of 'make sure you keep using your GCDs as a melee DPS' is truly the most skilled play FFXIV has to offer.

By the way, Trick Attack is a 3.3% net increase in total party DPS over not having Trick Attack in the party. That assumes a perfect use case and nobody ever needing to use a DoT during it (TA is a global resist debuff that stacks with other types of resist debuffs, and does not affect damage over time skills, so your Summoners and Bards are basically SoL when you use it.)

[Nexxus]

Once you know how to play a class, nothing is really hard.... it's taking just some time and difficulties to learn how to play. MNK, DRG, NIN, HEAL, TANK, Support... nothing is hard... It's just a point of view from outer perspective.
I was mnk before nin, and for both of them it's just a choregraphy to learn.

[alsims2007]

By the way, Trick Attack is a 3.3% net increase in total party DPS over not having Trick Attack in the party. That assumes a perfect use case and nobody ever needing to use a DoT during it (TA is a global resist debuff that stacks with other types of resist debuffs, and does not affect damage over time skills, so your Summoners and Bards are basically SoL when you use it.)

A global resist debuff would affect dots. The reason physical dots arent affected by the blunt/slashing/piercing dubuffs is because they are not classified as such once applied to the target but foe's req does affect a smn dots. For a monk it's like an extra 10secs of blood 4 blood without the damage penalty. Where trick attack is wasted is when all dots are already applied. Trick attack isnt good enough that someone would clip their dots and I believe all dots last longer than 10 seconds

[Zeviand]

Ridiculous idea to ever give the 1st Goad to the Bard. They use TP less quickly.

And I stopped reading right there. As someone who's mained both bard and monk I can say that bards absolutely use more tp than monk, especially if he's taking advantage of straighter shot procs and applying dots as soon as they drop. I'll keep doing what I'm doing, it seems to be working up through t13, and pushing 4 bennus in t12!

[Mardel]

And I stopped reading right there. As someone who's mained both bard and monk I can say that bards absolutely use more tp than monk, especially if he's taking advantage of straighter shot procs and applying dots as soon as they drop. I'll keep doing what I'm doing, it seems to be working up through t13, and pushing 4 bennus in t12!

Yep... no matter how good your monk is the goad rotation should be. Bard > (Other Melee) > Bard (or someone who died). Grats you now learned how to goad properly!

Reasoning: The time bard has to sing paeon is time he could be singing foe for the mage/ninja. That or they could be recovering MP for a ballad that will be needed in a future. This means... the benefit of giving it to a monk first does not out weigh the loss of -20% brd damage + foe requiem.

TLDR: 3 benefit vs 1 by using my goad rotation.

[Leonus]

All I know is, if I Goad a brd, when I need it... I better get paeon when I need it.

Or I stop giving the brd goad, and make him/her give everyone tp.
If you have 2 melee dps in your pt, singing paeon outweighs the mages having foes if the melee dps are low on tp.

Edit: I meet far too many brds that refuse to sing when melee dps is suffering from being low on tp.

[Aetherdancer]

And I stopped reading right there. As someone who's mained both bard and monk I can say that bards absolutely use more tp than monk, especially if he's taking advantage of straighter shot procs and applying dots as soon as they drop. I'll keep doing what I'm doing, it seems to be working up through t13, and pushing 4 bennus in t12!

Literally never, ever seen a bard use more TP than a monk. All you're saying is that YOUR bard uses more TP than YOUR monk. That could be for any number of reasons, maybe you suck at monk. I'll tell you however, that MY monk uses more TP than MY bard. (Maybe I suck at bard. *hint hint I don't*) You show me a bard that uses more TP than anyone else in his party, and I'll show you a bard who gets my first goad. I'm not stupid.

And you can shove it with your talk of pushing 4 bennus like you think that makes you better. My group pushes 4 bennus as well, without limit break. That was last week. Highest DPS order NIN > MNK > SMN > BRD.

Yep... no matter how good your monk is the goad rotation should be. Bard > (Other Melee) > Bard (or someone who died). Grats you now learned how to goad properly!

Reasoning: The time bard has to sing paeon is time he could be singing foe for the mage/ninja. That or they could be recovering MP for a ballad that will be needed in a future. This means... the benefit of giving it to a monk first does not out weigh the loss of -20% brd damage + foe requiem.

TLDR: 3 benefit vs 1 by using my goad rotation.

Delaying Paeon allows the bard to freely sing either of his other songs. Why do you think I goad the monk? He's the first person to need Paeon. If my bard needed TP first, I'd goad him instead. That doesn't happen. That never happens. At this point, what we're arguing about is who uses TP faster. It seems that both of your parties have a bard that uses TP faster that anyone else, but that's not the case with mine.

If I am low on TP and my bard is using Foe, I'm not giving him goad anymore. In that case, I could save it just in case there's a death. Just because the bard has 500 TP doesn't excuse him from playing Paeon, MAYBE unless you have two mages in your party and they both have raging strikes available. I could understand starving your melee DPS in that situation, but you're suggesting that the Ninja is meant to just starve altogether. At some point, the PLD and the WAR are gonna want Paeon too. Just because playing Paeon isn't an instant 10% increase in the DPS on your melees doesn't mean it's not worth playing. It's about intelligently managing resources. If giving 30 TP a second to each physical damager in your party wasn't worth losing 20% of your damage, then Paeon would never get played. Bard is the lowest DPS job in the game, even with a DRG to throw out Disembowel. 20% cut off of their DPS is much less than the DPS lost by a starving melee.

[Mibhas]

If I am low on TP and my bard is using Foe, I'm not giving him goad anymore.

How very entitled. I guess the idea of team play is lost on some.

[Aetherdancer]

How very entitled. I guess the idea of team play is lost on some.

I'm not speaking out of entitlement. If the bard is choosing to sing something else when the highest DPS character in the group is starving for TP, the bard doesn't have his priorities straight. The two melees, the bard, and the two tanks all need TP. I can only give TP to two of them. Paeon still needs to be sung. Goad is meant for the two players who use the most TP. Paeon can only be delayed for so long before the rest of us need TP.

If I have to allow the bard to run out of TP to understand that Paeon needs to be sung, better for him to sing it 10-20 seconds early than to not play it for me. My Ninja easily does the most DPS in the group. If you expected me to be doing shitty numbers based on your personal experience with Ninja, I'd understand your viewpoint. When my Ninja is running low on TP, the best thing the bard can do for DPS is play Paeon.

The whole reason I play Ninja is because it was the best thing I could do for my static. My NIN numbers are only barely below my MNK, I offer Trick Attack and the ability to delay the use of Paeon. I keep a slashing debuff up at all times so our warrior doesn't need to worry about it. I'm able to stun on command, silence on command, and slow when necessary. (Dreadknights, t5) A warrior, rotating between all three of his combos, will allow each of his debuffs to fall off of the boss for about 2 seconds, and that's without using Inner Beast or Steel Cyclone. If he adds those, he will allow them to fall off for longer. When he's OT, he turns off defiance, and gets to use Butcher's Block instead of Storm's Eye, while keeping Storm's Path up permanently. Same thing when he's MT. It increases his DPS while keeping a permanent slashing debuff up on his target.

I am the one in my static who formulates individual strategies, that breaks mechanics down in a way that allows people to understand them. I'm the one who explained why having fewer than 7 people alive in the final phase of t9 makes fire/ice more complicated than out/in/out/in, because there are some people who are happy just going out/in/out/in. I am all about teamwork. Not that you knew that, but your words about me not understanding the idea of team play ring hollow in my ears.