SE enough of the treadmill, please make the game more interesting!

[jars]

horizontal progression is duuuuuuuuuumb. no one wants to spend all that time on gear that is a sidegrade. if you are one of the few people that do then FFXI is right there, go play it. FF14 is far more successful than 11 was they have no reason to go back to the model when the one being used in 14 is a proven success.

[BlaiseArath]

horizontal progression is duuuuuuuuuumb. no one wants to spend all that time on gear that is a sidegrade. if you are one of the few people that do then FFXI is right there, go play it. FF14 is far more successful than 11 was they have no reason to go back to the model when the one being used in 14 is a proven success.

Well to be fair, FFXI came out back when MMOs weren't very popular or well known, that didn't happen til around WoW... and once WoW came out, it attracted pretty much everyone, and very few people would break away from WoW. While WoW still exists, you can see the discontent many of its fans have for it (at least vocal minority blah blah), and its popularity has dwindled a bit... plus, a MMOs are high in popularity these days and a lot of people "MMO hop" to the next cool thing. Plus, the absolute failure of 1.0 actually gave the game a lot of publicity, so believe it or no that benefited 2.0's release, as people wanted to see if it had improved. The stars aligned for XIV to become the success it is really.

The problem with is, XI wasn't very new player friendly for the longest time, so when it came to the point MMO popularity was being picked up, new players weren't helped to reach endgame and grew bored quite quickly, stunting the games over all growth. At its peak it did reach 500k subscribers and is still survived by a modest player base as people like to bring up.. pretty good for a game with "Dumb" progression system if you ask me.

FFXIV is by no means bad though, thats not what I'm getting at - nor do I think infinite side-grades is the best model (which is why XI did release newer, best in slot pieces often enough, the idiots will quote the same tired crap of 1-2 body pieces across 20 jobs being "the best" for a while meant the other 15 slots apparently never got upgraded?).

[Sho86]

horizontal progression is duuuuuuuuuumb. no one wants to spend all that time on gear that is a sidegrade.

Sooo.... Spending all that time on gear just for it to get entirely replaced is better?

[Duelle]

Sooo.... Spending all that time on gear just for it to get entirely replaced is better?

Better than having an unhealthy attachment to gear while wanting to snuff the concept of progression as much as possible to keep said gear relevant.

[Sho86]

Better than having an unhealthy attachment to gear while wanting to snuff the content of progression as much as possible to keep said gear relevant.

Unhealthy attachment? And wanting to do the same grind over and over again for the same job with slightly bigger numbers is healthy? Right... Also, content progression is NOT "snuffed" in any way. Just because your hitting for bigger numbers does not mean the same scenario could not be done with a couple digits less. Name any current dungeon, raid, coil, whatever that we are doing now - and it could be done with Lv10 gear, if they chose it to be done at that level. The difficulty would still be the same as the scenario would be scaled to it. Titan EX could have been Titan SM and so forth.

[Duelle]

Unhealthy attachment? And wanting to do the same grind over and over again for the same job with slightly bigger numbers is healthy?

That's how progression works. Out with the old, in with the new. When you resist you're showing you a) don't understand the concept of progression and b) are unwilling to move forward because of unhealthy attachments/nostalgia. Which is no different from the nonsense I saw on the FFXI boards when the developers wanted to move content in a certain direction and the people with relics/mythics/empyreans started crying that their time spent and the gear that came from it wasn't cream-of-the-crop uber elite. Which by extension is also no different from the WoW players in Naxx gear who complained that their gear wasn't going to matter once The Burning Crusade hit.

Also, content progression is NOT "snuffed" in any way.

I said this because when your main intent is making old stuff relevant in the same scale as new stuff, you're either making concessions in gear design, content design or character growth. I'm not about to sacrifice any of those just because someone is upset their breastplate from final coil will become obsolete.

For the record, I've done more gear grinds than I can count. The only thing that ever bothered me about disposing of old gear was that I liked the design of some, especially as looks varied depending on the tier/gear level. Lo' and behold, systems like wardrobe, transmogrification and glamours come into existence and pretty much do away with the only problem I ever had with sharding/tossing/selling outdated gear. Gear is tangible, yes, but like everything else there will come a time when it has to be replaced. That's why I'll cling more to my memories raiding or the odd weapon/gear that makes sense for my character's concept (my gnome's favorite weapon in WoW was an axe I got while questing in deepholm, nothing from any raid) over the current top gear.

[Sho86]

That's how progression works. Out with the old, in with the new.

Lv50 X boss is down, great you beat it, its old. Lv50 Y boss comes in, its new, time to learn new stuff and see new sights.

When you resist you're showing you a) don't understand the concept of progression and b) are unwilling to move forward because of unhealthy attachments/nostalgia.

Here we go with that "unhealthy" word again. No one is 'resisting' new fights and story coming out. Having new gear doesn't mean it has to do more numbers, it can have its own unique ability or stat combos. Those who want to sit with their current gear(at the current character level) could do so, those who want the new look/new stats/ability can go grind for it, both sides win, both sides are given the chance to progress on content.

WoW players in Naxx gear who complained that their gear wasn't going to matter once The Burning Crusade hit.

The bar was raised entirely. There was room for character/player growth on a whole as your level grew. Your character was no longer at the top on its own, so likewise its gear would only be so strong (that of the characters level).

I said this because when your main intent is making old stuff relevant in the same scale as new stuff, you're either making concessions in gear design, content design or character growth. I'm not about to sacrifice any of those just because someone is upset their breastplate from final coil will become obsolete.

Nothing is being sacrificed when someone at Lv50 can do a Lv50 fight/story/raid. If the content itself is that bland to where its the same as what you just fought last patch cept bigger numbers, then that is the problem, not because we hit for the same numbers.

Gear is tangible, yes, but like everything else there will come a time when it has to be replaced. That's why I'll cling more to my memories raiding or the odd weapon/gear that makes sense for my character's concept (my gnome's favorite weapon in WoW was an axe I got while questing in deepholm, nothing from any raid) over the current top gear.

And I held onto my Lv 42 AF Honor Sword for PLD in XI. At its level it was worthwhile to use, but no longer any use to me at 50, 60, 75, whatever. The nostalgia is there because it was useful for its time and was meaningful to achieve, much like AF armor at 60s, and Relic armor at 75. They held their purpose at their level because the character held their level.

[Nalien]

Better than having an unhealthy attachment to gear while wanting to snuff the concept of progression as much as possible to keep said gear relevant.

It isn't even about that. Most of the gear they add is simply worthless from the start; see any dungeon drop after Darklight and before AF1.5. That gear was never relevant. Making it relevant actually adds a whole new activity to the game. Keeping gear relevant actually gives players more to do than capping tomestones on a weekly basis. Gods forbid this game has more content to do.

Also, you're pretty silly if you think progression is solely about throwing out the old. There are plenty of examples of progression where we've kept the old, or simply improved upon it. Why? Because humans like having options (see: Transportation), that is why people want such gear to remain relevant, because it gives them options. The only real sense of progression this game has is the Relic quest, everything else is more akin to a trend. We had the Darklight trend, the Mythology trend, etc. etc.. Progression in Coil would have been nice, always thought it'd have been better to keep First/Second Coil more relevant by having the gear from First upgrade to Second, and finally now to Final, rather than each new Coil dropping entirely new pieces that replace the old.

[Tiggy]

see any dungeon drop after Darklight and before AF1.5. That gear was never relevant..

A great way to level desyth from the 60's and up, GC points that continue to remain relevant, and brand new players who don't yet have any currency stored or haven't had a chance to complete the 110 set yet since that takes time farming.

Come on man. It's very relevant. More relevant today than it ever was. The premise of your argument is false.

[Nalien]

Come on man. It's very relevant. More relevant today than it ever was. The premise of your argument is false.

That gear is solely relevant for Glamour, that's the only reason someone would actively farm the gear. Desynthesis is a joke to level and I seriously doubt anyone leveled it by farming such gear when there are far easier methods available, same for Company Seals. Haven't gotten i110 yet? Do Scyrus Tower and get i100 and upgrade items for i110, no idea why you'd opt to spam The Lost City instead.

Outside Glamour its relevance is utterly fleeting and certainly not something you'd go out of your way to obtain. It's a nice bonus if you're still gearing up or for desynth/Seals, but compared to the main pieces of gear in this game, its relevance is microscopic.