SE enough of the treadmill, please make the game more interesting!

[Teryaani]

- Not enough production value for a P2P subscription based game with an additional game purchase fee. Eg. There are F2P games with smaller dev teams that manage to have more dialog, BETTER dialog, and 100% -QUALITY- VOICE ACTED DIALOG. There is no goddamn excuse for the lazy lack of voice acting in a) towns and the open world b) boss fights c) bloody everything. It is appaling, in this day and age, that SE can't be assed to quality voice-act at LEAST the like... 5-10 lines of dialog in class/story/primal fights.

I disagree with you on the production values. The point you seem to be focusing on is the voice acting though. Voice acting was one of the banes on development side of games like SWTOR. It was expensive and time consuming to get any new content out. Is the player base really willing to wait many extra months so you can hear more of Minfilia's voice? I know that I'm not. One of this game's strengths is it's short development cycle for patches.

- Patronizingly easy content. Like... easy easy EASY. Players routinely reach high ilvl while still being clueless about how to play their class. All difficulty is artifical in the form of team-jumprope + OHKO.

This is hardly unique to FFXIV. You can buy carries in nearly any MMO, no matter horizontal or vertical progression. You can't force players to care, and trying just makes them unsub.

- World pretty aesthetically but bland, static, and plastic with no threat or adventure. Not even S rank hunt mobs can kill you if you don't let them since nothing chases you outside of it's pathetically small nest-area. Virtually impossible to die outside.

I'd rather not play in a killing field. I'm also not sure I entirely agree with you. There are still some zones that fresh geared characters can be quickly overwhelmed by LOS pulled mobs.

- Even overwhelmingly negative feedback from community largely ignored until it becomes an obvious financial liability. Eg. only time SE has every listened to feedback was when 1.0 threatened curbstomped the company.

The forums a feedback mechanism, but they are not the only feedback mechanism. SE filters it along with other sources they get. It's a good thing too given the number of "bring 1.0 back!" threads. It's things like those threads that make SE take the forum feedback with several shakers of salt.

- Dying has zero consequences.

I'll pass on having long term damage done to my character.

- Terrible, toxic community, likely thanks to all of the above.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. Toxic doesn't mean "disagrees with me". This community has been one of the best ones I've been in in the MMOS I've played.

- Virtually no character customizability. Truly only one "best" way to play every job in the game.

Not seeing the problem with this. I'd rather not see ability bloat.

- Content and grind designed to eat up as much of people's time as possible while being just okay enough they won't get fed up. Even stuff as simple as the movement speed is -just- fast enough for most people to not get annoyed.

MMOs are a grind. All of them. Your complaint is that it's quick enough to not annoy people. How is that bad?

- Garbage expositional nightmare of a script. Limited voice acting. Noticeably worse presentation and plot than any of the 1.0+ writing/cutscenes.

Again, voice acting is not the savior of the game. It will make things take longer to release and make it harder for new content with those characters to be made if you insist on everything being voice acted.

- Vertical progression game with a quasi-tedious horizontal progression style grind.

No, this is a vertical progression game with a vertical progression grind. Not seeing any sign of a horizontal progression here.

b) fishing... cuz you put controller on vibrate, alt-tab and i) watch a movie/show ii) work on renaming files or something iii) browse the interwebs iv) play another game that's fun.

You're complaining that the game is boring, and one of your favorite bits is autopilot fishing? Sorry, what?

[Avarghaladion]

I disagree with you on the production values. The point you seem to be focusing on is the voice acting though. Voice acting was one of the banes on development side of games like SWTOR. It was expensive and time consuming to get any new content out. Is the player base really willing to wait many extra months so you can hear more of Minfilia's voice? I know that I'm not. One of this game's strengths is it's short development cycle for patches.

Then they shouldn't continually half-ass it. Other titles that aren't AAA do full VA just fine. It isn't the obstacle you percieve it to be. F2P titles do it that release content on the same schedule. All things I already pointed out and that anyone can casually observe in a number of titles.

At any rate, no that wasn't my primary point on production value. At minimum, the game costs ~$140/yr per player and the bulk of the game's playtime is shamelessly padded. This may be par for the course in MMOs but the degree and manner to which it is padded in XIV is asinine and excessive. What we get for our money is a few new static mob move rotations to memorize, some reskins and pretty but hollow/stale backdrops, a single occasional good musical composition, and new experiments in tedium tolerance. Addtionaly, they employ RNG and lockouts of every nature known to gaming and especially tedious and repetitive grinds in excess of any game besides FFXI and legacy-style MMOs. Nothing ever changes and there is zero randomization of any kind. Games we paay less for offer much more and have more heart. There is profuction value here, but it's a skeletal look-but-don't-touch experience held together by intentionally addictive elements. It's only the framework of what we should expect from a modern AAA MMO.

This is hardly unique to FFXIV. You can buy carries in nearly any MMO, no matter horizontal or vertical progression. You can't force players to care, and trying just makes them unsub.

No kidding? A game is easy if you buy carries? Obviously irrelevant and not the point. The game's "hardest" content is virtually a Simon Says simulator devoid of any real personal challenge. The only difficulty that exists is completely artificial in that failure is rarely a result of a lack of gamer skill. A good player can perform their role flawlessly every single time, be God's gift to gaming in general, but it doesn't matter if even one person in the group makes even a single mistake in pretty much any coil turn pre-nerf. The fact that carries are even possible is indicative of the game's weakness in this department. It's easier for a group to clear something short a member than it is to clear with someone who makes even a single mistake. Aside from meeting DPS checks, a player who is mediocre at their job but adept at jumping through the team-jumprope hoops is more useful than the world's best gamer who hasn't memorized the rotations. How hard could it ever actually be when every boss does the exact same moves at the exact same times every single time you fight it? It's a joke.

There are still some zones that fresh geared characters can be quickly overwhelmed by LOS pulled mobs.

How? Unless they let themselves get petrified you can literally walk away from any open world fight as soon as it becomes evident you bit off more than you can chew. Sight mob are extremely easy to avoid thanks to narrow and short detection cones. Hearing mobs are completely avoidable by walking instead of running and have even smaller detection areas. If you fight a ranged mob you have to start walking earlier but the point stands. There is zero actual risk in any aspect of the open world.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. Toxic doesn't mean "disagrees with me". This community has been one of the best ones I've been in in the MMOS I've played.

Ironic bad attitude aside, the game, official forums, and reddits all abound with people of the mind that "holy $$%^ this community is toxic," and it's almost entirely the result of the game's content being presented in the way it is.

- Instances are glorified standardized testing. Success is graded on how well you've memorized the fight. Toxicity arises when friendly but clueless players join without having watched a video or something, usually.

- Older players grinding tomes have to deal with people wanting to watch up to 40min of CS in some cases, new players watching CS have to deal with rude veterans harping on em or kicking em.

- The only non-casual/social "community" is in the form of statics which mostly renders FCs irrelevant.

- Content locks make both static and PF politics toxic. Skilled players flock to statics leaving PF pugs to wallow in mostly less-skilled players, leading to frustration and toxicity.

- Hunt trolls.

Pretty much every aspect of the design lends itself to toxicity and deters actual friendly cooperation and teamwork.

MMOs are a grind. All of them. Your complaint is that it's quick enough to not annoy people. How is that bad?

The grind is supposed to be entertaining. XIV's grind is uninspired and lazy. It's bad because they're intentionally pushing the limits of what they know people will tolerate with the express purpose of padding subscription times. It feels like making things fun isn't even relevant to them.

Again, voice acting is not the savior of the game. It will make things take longer to release and make it harder for new content with those characters to be made if you insist on everything being voice acted.

Again, strawman argument and ignores the meat of the issue. VA aside, the script is still unpolished. Plot has been touched on by in-depth in posts well before you made yours. Not going to revisit it.

No, this is a vertical progression game with a vertical progression grind. Not seeing any sign of a horizontal progression here.

Lrn2read. "Horizontal progression style grind." The vertical grind is stetched out as much as possible. Gear is earned with almost as much grind as one would expect of gear in a horizontal progression system but it's still totally bland vertical progression disposable trash with no real options to speak of. Players pay and play more for less.

You're complaining that the game is boring, and one of your favorite bits is autopilot fishing? Sorry, what?

Lrn2read x2. Pretty easy to comprehend. You can literally play other games or even respond to vapid counterarguments, such is the freedom granted by fishing. It was a bit of a satirical remark, but it's true. At least fishing doesn't try to disguise the fact that it's a shameless time sink and it rewards you an item that's markedly better than anything comparable... not like DoW/DoM gameplay where everything is pretty much on par.

[Cidel]

- Instances are glorified standardized testing. Success is graded on how well you've memorized the fight.
- The only non-casual/social "community" is in the form of statics which mostly renders FCs irrelevant.
- Content locks make both static and PF politics toxic. Skilled players flock to statics leaving PF pugs to wallow in mostly less-skilled players, leading to frustration and toxicity.

Pretty much every aspect of the design lends itself to toxicity and deters actual friendly cooperation and teamwork.

I agree SE needs to get off the gear and content treadmill it is just really horrible. That and lowman lockout content which is a cancer for any guild trying to run as more then a social.

As for gear swapping, alot of people want it back for what is allowed content to do. It was the key to keeping all content relevant for almost ever. Until SE killed off the game with Abysea. And I would bet over 50% would love content that is never negated. (NOTE THIS DOES NOT MEAN NOT GETTING ANYTHING NEW!) That is the misconception ppl have with horizontal content. We can get as much content as we get now. but none of the old stuff becomes "Vanity Only/Desynth gear".

The progression blocking with nothing else to do once you hit endgame makes things like Free companies glorified chatrooms in the end.

Crafting and gathering are relegated to generally glamor content as progressive content is locked away behind the hardcore lockouts. All I suggest is for SE to start branching out your content instead of having one linear path of progression.

All of you :

[KamikazeMan]

They keep slowly adding things to the game. What made XI so diverse was time, wasn't it? I too wish there was more to do, but with XIV only being out for little over than a year, you can't expect there to be much. Especially when it's trying to compete with other big name MMOs. Gold Saucer is coming with Chocobo racing, tripple triad, and other mini games. Hopefully we get more stuff though. What I would really love is some kind of rewarding grinding content...like maybe a bestiary that requires you to kill x amount of enemies for a book entry and a reward for it...maybe a picture frame of a monster or something...or a card for triple triad

[BlaiseArath]

- Not enough production value for a P2P subscription based game with an additional game purchase fee. Eg. There are F2P games with smaller dev teams that manage to have more dialog, BETTER dialog, and 100% -QUALITY- VOICE ACTED DIALOG. There is no goddamn excuse for the lazy lack of voice acting in a) towns and the open world b) boss fights c) bloody everything. It is appaling, in this day and age, that SE can't be assed to quality voice-act at LEAST the like... 5-10 lines of dialog in class/story/primal fights.

First off, I'm not trying to attack any of your position, but I would like to rebut. I'm no FF fanboy (only really like a handful of them), and as someone who loved FFXI, i can say with great certainty I give XIV no breaks for the numbing casualisation of it (Yah, Casualisation is a word now).

Voice acting is a decent idea in MMOs, but alltogether one I don't consider a must have. I can take or leave it... if anything the chance of getting a squeeky lalafell will just throw me face first out of immersion way more than bringing me into it. I have an imagination and the ability to read just fine, and for a reason.

So I don't disagree with you, I just don't consider it a "Must have" for any reason at all.

Slowest/laggiest/weakest servers I remember seeing in a MMO.

I'm on Sarg too, and I have not once, a single time since I resubbed about 2-3 months ago, experienced any Lag or disconnection issues outside of the recent DDoS attacks... IDK if people actually experience this or are just parroting it.

Rewards are basically worthless and 100% completely replaced every few months. Nothing is unique, special, or actually valuable.

I agree with you 100% here... but thats the name of modern MMOs :\

- World pretty aesthetically but bland, static, and plastic with no threat or adventure. Not even S rank hunt mobs can kill you if you don't let them since nothing chases you outside of it's pathetically small nest-area. Virtually impossible to die outside.

Also, agree with you 100%. but I think most players would disagree with this... most modern MMOs have that very "safey" feeling open world thats more a decoration than a place for content.

- Terrible, toxic community, likely thanks to all of the above.

Welcome to humanity, honestly.

- Garbage expositional nightmare of a script. Limited voice acting. Noticeably worse presentation and plot than any of the 1.0+ writing/cutscenes.

I happen to enjoy it... FF has never been boss story telling (ease of fanboys, you know as much as I do its basically "blah blah Hero save us, Blah blah bad guy, blah blah crystals, blah blah hero wins", I still enjoy the games but its not exactly groundbreaking), but its sometimes the simplicity that has a few kernels of complexity that interests me in Final Fantasy storylines, the bits that make you want to know how the ending plays out, even if you know how its going to end (You win, duh). Still, I can say I'm thoroughly interested in completing Coil if only for the story. I mean, if I want to don my nostalgia goggles, nothing feels quite like CoP(FFXI) yet to me, but thats probably because in those days, going through an expansion opened up a world to you, not a dungeon.

I wish some of you got to experience Chains of Promathia when it first came out so you could understand what I mean when I bring it up... Ignoring that feeling of entering Promyvion, which was housed inside/alternate the Crags... a large mysterious structure that you had been exposed too since the games released... but that moment when you beat all 3 Promyvions, entered your cutscene and came out the other side in Lufaise Meadows... the melody of the land begins to play and you're now in a new area completely locked to you before, making your way to the Tavnazian Safehold. Theres even a place called "Blueblade Fell" where off in the distance you can see the ruins of Old Tavnazia, a place that was mentioned in the original game as well as show cased in the opening cutscene. It was a kinda magical feeling, you were also greeted with new enemy types, "Bugards". They also had different cloud/weather effects for these new areas, so it even felt like a new place.

The whole expansion was difficult, it was actually the center of a lot of complaints... I personally didn't find it so difficult that it was angering... it just felt all that more rewarding when I won. (I Imagine it much like how rewarding it was for a group to beat Turn 5 back when it first came out, with how difficult it was then). Its more of those feelings. Hard doesn't always have to mean "Impossible", and FFXI did not do everything right... but it really did do some things really right.

I mean, I teared up at the end of Chains of Promathia, that final cutscene where Distant Memories played? seriously, Man tears... it was saying goodbye to all the friends you made on the way... and this took me over a year to complete, so it really felt like I came to know these NPCs well, and seeing them all go their marry way while that beautiful song played? *shivers*, even typing about it brings me back to it.

I know some of you have experienced what I'm saying... maybe not in an MMO, but an offline game, or a movie.. that was what was great about CoP... it could make you feel things most MMOs can't.. emotional attachment to NPCs. I felt kinda similar at the end of Wings of the Goddess, though not as strongly. For those who never experienced or know CoP, just watch this and try to imagine yourself adventuring for a year or more with these NPCs, and this is the final cutscene you get when the story is done and settles: Has a foreign singer trying to sing in English so if you want to hear the song better, just youtube Distant Worlds

Edit: HEre's a fan made video - but the version of Distant Worlds is much more listenable - BOOTIFUL

Seriously, for those who never played XI, I'm sure you feel this way about something from your childhood, or a game that reached you emotionally... thats how FFXI felt to some of us, so unless you happen to be an emotionless imhuman drone, I hope you understand what type of FF MMO we've come from, and what emotions it was able to pull from us despite its outdated graphics and sometimes clunky Cutscenes... in a game significantly more advanced, it should be easier to portray these emotions.

Instances are 100% completely scripted. Fights are Identical every time you do it to the point you can run them with your eyes closed after one clear, or less if you watched a vid.

What would you suggest? I'm no fight designer, so while I could brainstorm some ideas, I can't imagine them being completely random.

Edit: I EDIT SO MUCH IM SORRY

[Avarghaladion]

First off, I'm not trying to attack any of your position, but I would like to rebut. I'm no FF fanboy (only really like a handful of them), and as someone who loved FFXI, i can say with great certainty I give XIV no breaks for the numbing casualisation of it (Yah, Casualisation is a word now).

I called myself a fanboy but that'd be the category I fall into as well, especially with all of the latest FF titles. Loved XI and played it until just before the last expansion but in general it's the older NES/SNES titles I'm nostalgic about. Noting the casualization is an astute observation. Even coil feels casual, just less so.

Voice acting is a decent idea in MMOs, but alltogether one I don't consider a must have. I can take or leave it... if anything the chance of getting a squeeky lalafell will just throw me face first out of immersion way more than bringing me into it. I have an imagination and the ability to read just fine, and for a reason.

Another good point. I went off the rails a bit there about voice acting and I think my rage at the VA is because of the bad writing and that there is VA in some places and not in others. Find it jarring and inconsistent and it bothers me. Feels very half-assed. I don't really care about the non-combat VA so much but when they have an actor for a character and they don't do the few combat lines they have, it's a piss off. More immersive to have VA combat dialog as opposed to an annoying pop-up window or chat log entry and I do feel that immersion should be a priority in a MMO.

I'm on Sarg too, and I have not once, a single time since I resubbed about 2-3 months ago, experienced any Lag or disconnection issues outside of the recent DDoS attacks... IDK if people actually experience this or are just parroting it.

It's certainly not gamebreaking anymore in that outside of the DDoS I don't have issues at all in combat, even on tethered cellphone internet or crappy rural hotel internet. My point here was more about how the server capabilities seem very limited for a AAA P2P title. Take DCUO for instance. It's a F2P with millions of users but it's still able to put everyone pretty much on the same server in a given region and it's combat is vastly more fast-paced and reactive. In comparison, XIV can get chuggy as balls if you get too many people in the same area and it feels to me as though the servers are pretty baren, even Sarg. I mean Sarg's one of the busiest ones and I hear from FC members coming from elsewhere that some servers are just ghost towns with nearly useless PF participation.

I agree with you 100% here... but thats the name of modern MMOs :\

This is definitely true, but in my experience other moden MMOs with a vertical progression model don't make you grind as hard for it. I'd have no problem with the disposable nature of rewards if it wasn't for the comparatively excessive grind. We either eat mega-RNG in coil or we get an item a week with Poetics =/ There's Nexus and beyond... but it doesn't look like they'll ever be that much better than the disposable stuff. I resent when what amounts to a never-ending stream of trash drops is gated as a time-sink that, really, makes up the core gameplay.

Also, agree with you 100%. but I think most players would disagree with this... most modern MMOs have that very "safey" feeling open world thats more a decoration than a place for content.

You could be right but I'm not totally convinced. Again, in DCUO, if you let your guard down you can get curbstomped in seconds in PVE open world and mobs chase and CC you. A solid glass cannon build with some CC can survive pretty much anything but it's certainly never a guarantee. Path of Exile, another F2P, does throw armies and armies of trash at you but it's punctuated by the occasional randomly generated mob that -will- get your blood pumping, especially in hardcore mode where death is permanent. Also in PoE hardcore I'd never feel safe AFKing outside of town.

To me, in XIV where death is completely meaningless, there really should be some sort of sense of peril... I shouldn't be able to literally slow-walk into the heart of beastmen/empire strongholds without fear of death. Hell, even Star Trek online has threatening trash. I can't think of another game where I'd feel totally safe running buck naked through a lvl 50 zone as a naked lvl 1.

Welcome to humanity, honestly.

Unfortunately, though in my experience XIV's been uglier than other MMOs I've payed.

I happen to enjoy it...

Yes, coil's story is decent, I will agree. In general though I find the story quality is nothing compared to XI. Like you said, CoP was very masterful and heartfealt in both script and execution. Gameplay served to enhance the plot and it was very immersive. To me it really just feels like they don't care about the XIV story much at all.

What would you suggest? I'm no fight designer, so while I could brainstorm some ideas, I can't imagine them being completely random.

Doesn't have to be completely random but some degree of randomness is required. In XI I'd look up what barspells I'd expect to use but I'd certainly never be able to memorize a whole fight by glancing at a paragraph of text or watching a 5min video.

Right now, every encounter is based on a set move rotation. Every mob uses the exact same abilities at the exact same times every single time you fight it. The simplest way of spicing things up without breaking them, which is what I believe pretty much every other RPG in existence has always done, is instead create move-lists with action use probabilites with checks and balances in place to keep things fair. Basically, checks and balances should exist to keep a mob from doing something back to back that isn't survivable but everything else should be fair game. Examples: You can't let Titan Mountain Buster twice in a row, or do back to back to back Tumult, but there's no reason he shouldn't be able to Landslide randomly or drop back to back bombs. Same for every mob: If attack = Cleave or heavy AoE, add delay before next cleave or heavy AoE. Anything that's forgiveably survivable a mob should be allowed to spam. Additonally, they could randomize the duration or cast time of certain attacks (ie. make Raffie's Blighted Boquet cast time vary from 4-8 seconds or something like T7's voice timers). Anything to keep players more on their toes.

Really all I want is a reason to have to play with my eyes open. Fights can have some scripted moves but the fewer the better. Also, if we had a probability based attack system like I described, mobs could have more moves and fights'd get a lot more interesting. The flipside is they'd actually have to test and QC content more but it's what I expect in a game for which I'm paying a monthly fee.

Edit: Additional complaint. Being charged unneccesary fees for basic account admin that's free in other games.
Edit 2: You -could- let a mob cleave or heavy-AoE back to back as long as the programmed rules provided sufficient time for a healer to make it recoverable. Again, the key here is quality battle programming. Thingfs need to be programmed to be fair but fun and clean. It needs to flow. It needs to feel unpredictable but still natural.

[Bucy]

I don't mind the weapon and armor treadmill so much, but there is a lot of grindiness in the game that often makes me dread logging in.The relic quests can be a drag, but aren't as ridiculous as they once were, with the exception of Novus and retuning the stats after Nexus; materia prices are out of control IMO. The relic quests do lack any epic feeling, to the point that they really can't be called a quest, rather a list. A quest starts somewhere, takes you on a journey, challenges you, then ends with you defeating an adversary, finding the "thing", and growing as a person/adventurer. The current grind for Oaknots is really unwelcome. I spent months grinding the beast tribes to finish them and be done with them so I could focus on other things. Now I have to grind Ixal quests everyday for the rest of my Eorzean experience, because the sealants are needed to make the new crafting and gathering gear, and will take a total of 108 day to get enough just to make my set before I can make any gil. It has been suggested I should just buy the stuff...I don't have the gil for these things. The devs obviously subscribe to the "Log Horizon" economic model, but there is a glaring flaw in it. The malaise that players had in LH was cured by them learning to make food with flavor, which cost more time, rffort, and currency, but they can't log out. They are stuck living in their game. There is no escape in LH. The devs tell us we should just grind more to sell more, or do more dungeons, put in more effort, because that is how we can make the make hundreds of millions of gil needed to buy houses, buy materia, buy sealants. I could do that, or I could find something fun to do. FFXIV is my entertainment and not my career. The sort of effort and time they think we should be exerting is what I reserve for making IRL money to support my IRL family.

[Rufalus]

So many interesting things have been announced already for the months ahead. You just need to patiently await implementation.

• Chocobo racing and breeding
• Card game collecting and battling
• Other minigames (basketball / casinos)
• Eternal Bond / marriage
• New PvP rules and maps
• Build airship in collaboration with FC
• New GC ranks implementation
• Completion of relic/zodiak weapons
• Raised level cap with new job skills
• Large new zones and flying mounts
• New playable race and jobs

Plenty of new story content too.

[Nicobo]

FFXI is still running, no one need to miss it, just logon XI and have fun! ^^;

[Ryel]

FFXI is still running, no one need to miss it, just logon XI and have fun! ^^;

The thread is still up, you could try actually reading it and making a relevant post! ^^;