Lock out is to heavy handed

[Dwill]

You are so clueless it's not even funny, this system was put in place to counter griefers, people who intentionally withdraw or timeout queues looking to fish in progress, no not everyone who accidentally missed their queue and uses their strikes "deserves" the penalty, stop looking at this with a black and white perspective.

Toxic player.

Yes, because the Duty Finder is totally a mind reader and will know instantly if you were fishing or not

Did you really think that the system could read the intent of the players and make a decision accordingly ? Not that it even matter anyway because by not accepting the queue, you cause the same result as a griefer/fisher. You're also given 3 strikes just to make sure.

You're quick to toss the Toxic word but you don't even seem to grasp what it really means. The funny thing is that coming from you, I'm not even surprised in the slightest.

That's because there is a rather toxic community in XIV that ALWAYS asks to see players punished\excluded from content\just plain uninstall because they didn't do xyz the same way and don't deserve to play. Just because a bunch of people like to see other players suffer doesn't mean it's the correct solution. It's actually rather disappointing that so many would rather punish one another than work together for a fair and intelligent solution. It's even more disappointing that the devs are embracing it.

This community is by far one of the best community out there. The thing is that people like you who call people toxic for disagreeing with you, for crafters actually being crafters and playing the Market Board (Like seriously ?):

and crafters monopolize the markets.

or just doing things that don't affect you in the slightest is what the real problem is. If you think everyone is so toxic, how about you look in the mirror first, you might see the root of the issue.

[Alukah]

Yes, because the Duty Finder is totally a mind reader and will know instantly if you were fishing or not

It's not about it being a mind reader, it's what Souljacker already said several times, design flaws, an optimal design is one that tries to deal with the problem affecting the least amount of innocents, the current system is not optimal, the current system can affect many people that aren't griefing.

You're quick to toss the Toxic word but you don't even seem to grasp what it really means. The funny thing is that coming from you, I'm not even surprised in the slightest.

I'm sure you do know what a toxic player means, being one yourself.

Actually since you don't seem to understand that I don't want to talk to you, let's do each other a favor, click on my name and add me to your ignore list, I already did it with you.



Don't bother replying, I won't read it.

[Teryaani]

It's not about it being a mind reader, it's what Souljacker already said several times, design flaws, an optimal design is one that tries to deal with the problem affecting the least amount of innocents, the current system is not optimal, the current system can affect many people that aren't griefing.

I honestly want to hear what this better system is.

You keep looking at this from the point of view of the person withdrawing, I want you to look at it from the point of view of the other people you're impacting. Legitimate to you or not, you have done the behavior that this system is trying to curb, so "innocent" is a bit far of a reach. "Not intentionally griefing" may be a better choice there.

Souljacker's proposed random distribution system will lead to more drops from duty in progress, which for me is way more painful to deal with than a fresh queue coming up, then failing. So that's out for me.

[Giantbane]

I honestly want to hear what this better system is.

You keep looking at this from the point of view of the person withdrawing, I want you to look at it from the point of view of the other people you're impacting. Legitimate to you or not, you have done the behavior that this system is trying to curb, so "innocent" is a bit far of a reach. "Not intentionally griefing" may be a better choice there.

Souljacker's proposed random distribution system will lead to more drops from duty in progress, which for me is way more painful to deal with than a fresh queue coming up, then failing. So that's out for me.

Just some thoughts:

The best solution is if a person withdraws from a queue, the queue does not break up the whole group and instead finds a replacement for those who timed out. Those who clicked "confirm" would not have to click it again, they would just stay with the confirmation window up. The game would only break up an existing group of people who already clicked "confirm" if it could not find an immediate replacement. Anyone who withdrew would store a list of groups they recently withdrew from and that person would not be added back into any of those same groups.

But that's more work, so it's better to identify where this was a problem. The only places I saw this were CT/ST, expert, and low level. A common theme between all 3 are that the rewards are heavily stacked at the end of the dungeon, this causes people to fish for in progress in those particular dungeons. There are a number of ways to deal with this sort of thing. One option is to just give them what they want and get them away from everyone else by adding in progress only. This way all the in progress fishers will be removed from your queues forever and will never effect you. There is concern that this would add to the queue times because all the tanks or healers would only queue for in progress. But if all the tanks and healers queue for in progress, then they're going to have to wait a long time because there's only so many in progress dungeons that will be available. They might as well just do the dungeon normally since it will be faster as they already have near instant queues. You'll also probably get more people participating due to the in progress option. Some people won't do certain content at all because the rewards are not worth the time invested (low level comes to mind), but you will likely get more tanks and healers looking for "easy" queues which will increase competition. The result is likely a negligible effect on queues in exchange for a flexible system that lets people do what they want.

You could also obscure the in progress value in the same way that CT/ST does by only displaying 0/1 no matter what the actual progress is. A problem that exists is it can be difficult to fill 0/3 in progress dungeons. You're risking joining in progress on a likely dysfunctional group that hasn't made any progress. Those fishing for in progress are looking for 2/3 or 1/3, this would prevent allowing the in progress fishers from being able to fish for those specific dungeons. This prevents that while helping 0/3 groups that need some help. If in progress only was added, I think this should also be added.

Or you could just not display the fact that a dungeon is in progress at all. Although, I would caution against this. Sometimes people will ask their FC/linkshell for help with an in progress dungeon. It's nice to be able to identify that the queue that pops up is actually in progress so you can help those who you want to help. I know some want to be able to invite friends directly to help in progress runs, but I think that's ripe for abuse (voting out your current dungeon group members because you want to invite your friends). So it's nice to have some way to link those who need help with those who want to help without the direct invite option, and I think this accomplishes that.

Even with the above you can still have people trolling the queue because they have nothing better to do. But a shorter withdraw penalty (5-15min) with a shorter reset period (1-3 hrs) would curb most trollish behavior. For the most dedicated trolls it should be easy for SE to identify people who are *constantly* withdrawing and have a GM check their behavior to put them in timeout. This is also a good idea even if you add some way of directly curbing the practice of fishing.

And lets face it, the primary offender here was CT/ST. While other categories can be subject to in progress fishing, the number of people in CT/ST can mean that players even withdrawing for "legitimate" reasons can cause a number of resets for some people. So it would be better to limit the existing 3/day > 30min penalty to just CT/ST to specifically target *that* problem. Someone who got a strike from going to the bathroom during a particularly lengthy guildhest queue (where the queue estimates are often innacurate) doesn't deserve the strike as much as someone who withdraws from an ST queue after a 30sec wait. The system and its punishments should reflect that, it currently doesn't.

Or just break up the penalty enforcement by category. Trials, 24 man raids, pvp, low/high/expert dungeons, that sort of thing. Again, it was particular categories that were problematic. Withdrawing from ST 3x within a day causes you to be locked out of ST/CT for 30min.

Finally, even WITH the current system, the group penalty should only be inflicted on the individual who withdraws. Group trolling is a made up issue. Punishing people to prevent a problem that doesn't exist is stupid. Ready checks only work when the queue starts. Sure everything works fine if the queue is instant after the ready check, but that's not always the case (had to wait 15min to help out someone do Ramuh HM for story with a partial group that had 2 tanks, for instance). Being punished for the mistakes of others is a bad idea that's only going to lead to more animosity between players and this game does NOT need that.

[Teryaani]

Just some thoughts:

Let's separate the group issue and solo issue because that, completely legitimate, complaint differs from the "OOPS! I missed my queue again!" complaint. The group penalty issue is one that SE should fix - inflict the penalty on the person who withdraws.

The solo one? I'd rather they leave in.

[Souljacker]

I honestly want to hear what this better system is.

The better system is as follows, tried and true by many successful MMO's loooooong before ARR was a gleam in YoshiP's eye.

Random queue is random. No "Ok I will queue for a random but here are my conditions", no checking a box to allow yourself into the "in progress" queue, you are just filtered into the dungeons as they open, period. No telling you how many bosses are killed or any hints of what the dungeon is - the Random Queue is truly a Random Queue. You want a full run? You queue the dungeon by itself.

There you go - there is the solution without any arbitrary penalties just because the design was originally flawed and SE refuses to admit it and would prefer to make everyone's life harder.

I just got done running a cutter's cry and queuing up was actually pretty stressful. My roommate knocked on my door and needed help with something, and I kept looking over my shoulder because I was scared to death to miss a queue. The time started at 15, dropped to 9 and then to 5. Can't even count on long DPS timers anymore because the accuracy is even more of a joke than other games (it popped at the 8 min mark, as an aside).

That's not the point. Who knows what would happen the next time I queued up? Cat emergency? Car accident outside (I live on a road at a dangerous curve and 10-15 people end up in the woods a year)? Urgent need for the restroom? It's not as far-fetched as you think for something to pull a person away from the queue more than once or twice.

It's just so... unnecessary when redesigning the queue to function like all other mmos would solve the original problem.

But by all means - let's just keep encouraging them to put in penalty after penalty.

[MomomiMomi]

My roommate knocked on my door and needed help with something, and I kept looking over my shoulder because I was scared to death to miss a queue.

Dat 30 min penalty.

[Teryaani]

The better system is as follows, tried and true by many successful MMO's loooooong before ARR was a gleam in YoshiP's eye.Random queue is random. No "Ok I will queue for a random but here are my conditions", no checking a box to allow yourself into the "in progress" queue, you are just filtered into the dungeons as they open, period. No telling you how many bosses are killed or any hints of what the dungeon is - the Random Queue is truly a Random Queue. You want a full run? You queue the dungeon by itself.

There you go - there is the solution without any arbitrary penalties just because the design was originally flawed and SE refuses to admit it and would prefer to make everyone's life harder.

This leads to a follow up question. Will there be a "are you ready" check to enter at all? If yes, then you've solved nothing with this as that player could just idle off or drop at that point. If it just drops the character in, allow me to suggest an issue with your design.

Dropping a player into a queue without warning means that the group could be sitting for some time while said character's player is in the restroom. Leading to a votekick...oh wait, you can't votekick in the first x minutes. So leading to players to sit and wait, abandon the duty, or leave and themselves suck up a 30 minute penalty.

Meaning that you just forced three people to suffer rather than have one person have a single strike toward a thirty minute penalty.

Also, that would mean no crafting/gathering/leveling alts while waiting as that would be class you're dropped in as. Good luck carpenter! This works in WoW because you only have one class. It doesn't work here.

I just got done running a cutter's cry and queuing up was actually pretty stressful. My roommate knocked on my door and needed help with something, and I kept looking over my shoulder because I was scared to death to miss a queue. The time started at 15, dropped to 9 and then to 5. Can't even count on long DPS timers anymore because the accuracy is even more of a joke than other games (it popped at the 8 min mark, as an aside).

You're stressed out from queueing? I sense some hyperbole here. That or maybe you should strongly consider the amount of weight you put to this game. A game shouldn't bring high stress. If it does, then you should look into what's causing it.

Also, three strikes. If it's important and the queue just popped, suck up a single strike.

That's not the point. Who knows what would happen the next time I queued up? Cat emergency? Car accident outside (I live on a road at a dangerous curve and 10-15 people end up in the woods a year)? Urgent need for the restroom? It's not as far-fetched as you think for something to pull a person away from the queue more than once or twice.

You get two unpunished strikes. If your neighborhood is constantly having cats drive cars into trees or whatever, then maybe better insulated windows to block the noise? I get that you're attempting to imply that you rush out to help the accident victims that pile up outside your door, but I'm not buying that as a daily occurrence.

But by all means - let's just keep encouraging them to put in penalty after penalty.

By all means, characterize my arguments that way. You certainly don't like to discuss things without hyperbole and painting those that disagree with you with a broad brush. Why stop now?

When you have maybe an hour and a half to play, yea. Some of us had to grow up you know.

Okay, I have to ask, honestly, how are you getting three strikes in 90 minutes?

[Souljacker]

This leads to a follow up question. Will there be a "are you ready" check to enter at all? If yes, then you've solved nothing with this as that player could just idle off or drop at that point. If it just drops the character in, allow me to suggest an issue with your design.

You can suggest issues all you want - but it's not *my* design - it's the design of every other mmo queue on the planet. I never said a thing about dropping a player into a queue without warning. You still click the accept button when your queue pops, you just don't know what you are going into (x bosses killed) because the queue is truly randomized and just filters you as slots open. Voila - no more ability to fish for in-progress runs and no one needed to be penalized, ever. Really, these concepts aren't all that difficult. I don't understand why some of you are being so willfully obtuse.

Okay, I have to ask, honestly, how are you getting three strikes in 90 minutes?

I'm not. I'm suggesting that overall, this was the incorrect way to address the issue. Instead of making people paranoid that they might miss a queue - fix the queue. That's what I've said from the beginning.

[Teryaani]

I never said a thing about dropping a player into a queue without warning.

Which is why I asked the question. That's what you do when you want clarification on things.

You still click the accept button when your queue pops, you just don't know what you are going into (x bosses killed) because the queue is truly randomized and just filters you as slots open. Voila - no more ability to fish for in-progress runs and no one needed to be penalized, ever.

This won't fix the troll factor or the folks who seem to queue and run off to the restroom incessantly. I'm also going to call an increase in abandoned duties now if this were implemented. The duty in progress feature has a purpose(s) that doesn't involve fishing and I'd like that to stay.

Really, these concepts aren't all that difficult. I don't understand why some of you are being so willfully obtuse.

So we've shifted from being toxic to just being clueless? That's a good change I guess. Some day we may just be dissenting fellow humans. I can dream right?

I'm not. I'm suggesting that overall, this was the incorrect way to address the issue. Instead of making people paranoid that they might miss a queue - fix the queue. That's what I've said from the beginning.

So you're being made paranoid about a penalty that you have never and likely will never be affected by and the bulk of the players will never be affected by and is designed to make a QoL improvement for the player base? Judging by the reactions I'm seeing both here and in game, it's been largely a positive move. Once they fix the party penalty, I suspect it will be even more so.