Tier List

[Vaeria]

Atreus said in his post (2pts in 2+ waves) which, until he clarifies, can be interpreted as 1 pt fought, killed, then fought again, or 2 pts of say adders vs 2 pts of flames. W/e the case, extended engagements (even with 3 enemy healers, let alone 6 lol) aren't rare at all, making those numbers possible for any number of reasons. Poor target priority on the part of melees, unability to focus target, w/e. I've broken 100k myself as lol-brd simply because for w/e reason people forgot about me during healfests, so its no surprise, again, that a pld could go on and on.

[Vaeria]

One more thought: The role of a 'good pld' allows room for variation once multiple tanks enter into the equation (Atreus makes mention of another tank in his premade I think) When dealing with multiple healers, theres only so much ANY tank can do in terms of stunlocking, and, once it becomes apparent melees aren't properly focusing, a tank might shift his focus elsewhere to find another crack in the armor so to speak. Kinda need you to clarify what your personal definition of a plds 'playing their class right' involves Skeet (specifically in FL, not WD.) As a side example, I've made friends with a pld who assists me in attempting to burn blms BEFORE jumping on the healer. Is this wrong?

[Atreus]

*sigh* I can't tell if you're being serious anymore. Am I being trolled?

The "aggressive attitude" that you're claiming was only triggered after you made this silly comment:

-Also, it is good to take note that if a PLD is doing these numbers, they aren't playing their class right. If you want to DPS, then play a DPS class. Sure you don't get hit a lot as a PLD, but you sure as hell won't do as much damage as an actual DPS class.

It was then I realized you have no idea what you're talking about, and don't read well. And don't play a victim and act like implications weren't made, please.

That aside, in no post did I state it could do more than an actual DPS (assuming said DPS is played to its maximum). The only sentence remotely close was concerning how monk and dragoon have more difficulty maintaining these numbers, to which some of us then started discussing solutions. So who exactly is missing the point?

As for the situation... I think it's sort of implied the victors of said encounters were us. No, limit breaks weren't used. Really? So you're telling me a party of 8 cannot deal with two parties without limit break? I'm going to assume that's because you haven't done that either, so you're claiming impossibility. Seems to be the root of your argument here. Parties in question more than likely do suck, but you wanna know a crazy little weakness in two-party stacking? The difficulty in cross-party healing for most. Go ahead and ask anyone that runs a regular premade. Please, ask them. The traveling, btw, was from Markets, to the Heliodrome (sadly we just missed the node), then straight down to Storm Outpost.

To any real PLD's, any and all of them will notice a good drop in their DPS if they focus on stun-locking targets as opposed to focusing on JUST DPS'ing.

Don't worry, I'm well aware of how stunlocks work. You know what's kinda cool? Liberal use of your non-GCD's in between said locks. The other point of mentioning the two parties was to point out the abundance of targets for Circle of Scorn and Glory Slash. They aren't Flares, but damage pressure is paramount, however you can get it. Know what else is neat? Auto-attacks enhanced by Sword Oath. You're right, stunlocking reduces damage (lol, real PLD's, your posts really are funny), which I guess means my damage would have been higher if I didn't. But hey, couldn't let those pesky healers escape. 8D As a caveat, though, once healers are dead, stunlocks aren't really necessary unless there's a danger or to prevent escape. As I expected, your view on performing PLD seems to be to lock everything.


So let me ask you a question now, looking at the PLD currently on your Lodestone. I assume you're intelligent enough to swap to STR accessories so skipping that, where are your 30 points put into? For the rest of your gear, do you have a BiS set for maximizing determination and crit? Do you use food? Did you maximize STR with your AP? Do you even use icarus wings when you're bleeding for TP? If yes, then you should be capable of doing the exact same, so why are you upset? If not, why are you even talking to me right now?

As I said before, I also DPS on PLD from time to time.

.....

Atreus said in his post (2pts in 2+ waves) which, until he clarifies

Just clarified above, my apologies if I wasn't clear!

allows room for variation once multiple tanks enter into the equation (Atreus makes mention of another tank in his premade I think)

Yes indeed, there was a MRD. He lets me handle stuns on critical targets, but you are right. Flexibility is wonderful. The other thing you are right on is variation. Just as a healer knows when it's time to DPS, so should a PLD.

[Skeet]

...not trying to start a war here Skeet but I'm curious: Did you play Wolves Den or begin with Frontlines? (not trying to be sarcastic at all That question you asked 'Whose job is it to DPS-a tank?', kinda leads me to believe you haven't, which would explain a bit. But if you have, surely you've noticed tanks (WD-wise, specifically MARs turned WAR) have some of the most crushing damage of all, EEEASILY over standard DPS. And why? BECAUSE they're tanks. Properly geared str/super-aggressive tanks make for some of the best dps of all simply because they have the advantage of, unlike standard dps who get hounded, not being bothered with until everyone else is cleared out. What plds lose in terms of straight dps to melees, they gain in terms of extended ability to engage. Your agruement seems to push aside this point (and yes, I'm aware of your saying 'If' both lasted as long)

I started in WD as a BLM and used SMN/PLD as an alt whenever I wanted to switch things around or whenever my premade wanted to switch classes. Started off solo queuing though sinceI didn't really meet anyone that liked PvP back then. I started back when they allowed 2 range classes to be in the same team.

Even so, was under the impression this debate was to establish the validity of Atreus' numbers in light of the doubt you cast upon them, not about the practicalness of leaving a DPS's job to a DPS. Where did that come from at all lol?

No? I never doubted his numbers. If you read carefully, I never mentioned his name. My original post was to PLD's in general.

[Skeet]

It was then I realized you have no idea what you're talking about, and don't read well. And don't play a victim and act like implications weren't made, please.

Considering you think that I was talking about you rather than talking about just plain bad PLD's in general makes me wonder who really is the one that can't read well. I stick by my word and I swear that I didn't make any implications towards you. Read my original post again with a less 'hate' filled mind and you will see that what I said wasn't directed towards you in any way.

That aside, in no post did I state it could do more than an actual DPS (assuming said DPS is played to its maximum). The only sentence remotely close was concerning how monk and dragoon have more difficulty maintaining these numbers, to which some of us then started discussing solutions. So who exactly is missing the point?

My original post and point was towards only Vaeria. You're the one who jumped the gun since my post towards him didn't involve you. I just used your numbers as an example to set across my point. My point to him was that PLD's don't normally hit high amounts of DPS damage. Why DPS as a PLD when you can guarantee for your team a dead healer with a smartly timed stun-lock? Solo-queuing I wouldn't even bother stun-locking since random people are just so bad most of the time...but in a premade party that knows how to focus burn targets quickly, stun-lock becomes deadly to a healer. With my main premade group, there hasn't been a single time I started a stun-lock where the enemy has gotten away alive. Oh and just last week we went on a 13 win streak before calling it a night.

As for the situation... I think it's sort of implied the victors of said encounters were us. No, limit breaks weren't used. Really? So you're telling me a party of 8 cannot deal with two parties without limit break? I'm going to assume that's because you haven't done that either, so you're claiming impossibility. Seems to be the root of your argument here.

No, it was very vague. You just mentioned you were facing 2 parties in your original post. Vaeria's posts right before ours also confirms that it was hard to tell.

I've fought 2 parties before versus my 1 party. At most, we won when it seemed like the enemy team's B squad only sent half of their members to an A or C location where we were engaged. We've won multiple ones and lost a few depending on how good the other party is. On the times my group did face 2 full parties, it was pretty much just a blitz. We only run 2 healers, which is all we need to survive in all honesty. My premade's still undefeated in terms of FL matches. So, when 2 parties attack us, who would they attack first? The 2 healers. The other team most likely consisted of somewhere between 8-12 DPS's and around 2-4 tank classes. It's VERY doubtful that any 1 premade party's healers could survive an attack with that many damaging classes going after a party of 2 or 3 healers.

-Which also brings up the next question towards you: How many healers were in your party? By the way you described your post, and with winning without LB, it's safe to assume you had 2 or 3 healers. 2-3 healers cannot survive an onslaught of around 10 dps's with around 2 tanks targeting just them. Of course, unless the 2 enemy party group was just plain bad.

Parties in question more than likely do suck, but you wanna know a crazy little weakness in two-party stacking? The difficulty in cross-party healing for most. Go ahead and ask anyone that runs a regular premade.

This isn't really a valid point or argument. Cross healing? Why would that even be a factor? If 2 full parties were sent, why would one group's healers focus on the other party? Heal your own party and let the other team's party heal theirs. There is no need to cross party heal when it's a full 2 party group vs 1 full party.

Don't worry, I'm well aware of how stunlocks work. You know what's kinda cool? Liberal use of your non-GCD's in between said locks. The other point of mentioning the two parties was to point out the abundance of targets for Circle of Scorn and Glory Slash. They aren't Flares, but damage pressure is paramount, however you can get it. Know what else is neat? Auto-attacks enhanced by Sword Oath. You're right, stunlocking reduces damage (lol, real PLD's, your posts really are funny), which I guess means my damage would have been higher if I didn't. But hey, couldn't let those pesky healers escape. 8D As a caveat, though, once healers are dead, stunlocks aren't really necessary unless there's a danger or to prevent escape.

Well you did good in having an adult level argument until this part, but I commend the effort and the obvious less-hate filled post.

But back to the post. Yes, more players will equal more damage for both circle of scorn and glory slash, but was their 2 full party all clumped up together in range for it? If they were, then I have no words to express how bad this team you fought was...
-And yes, Sword Oath helps. Thanks for the basic paladin 101.

As I expected, your view on performing PLD seems to be to lock everything.

I stun-lock the healers and mark them for my premade to focus. I don't use stun-locks otherwise unless it's just 1 person running away.

-See, assuming things is bad.

So let me ask you a question now, looking at the PLD currently on your Lodestone. I assume you're intelligent enough to swap to STR accessories so skipping that, where are your 30 points put into? For the rest of your gear, do you have a BiS set for maximizing determination and crit? Do you use food? Did you maximize STR with your AP? Do you even use icarus wings when you're bleeding for TP? If yes, then you should be capable of doing the exact same, so why are you upset?

I have 2 gear sets for both PvM and PvP, yes. My stats are put into STR since I don't really use PLD outside of PvP except for trial roulette's where tanks are the job in need for that extra gil boost. Yes, I do have a damage set on my PLD PvP gear set. I don't use food actually. It's a waste. I have tested the use of food on SMN and BLM and have noticed a decent improvement in DPS, but again, it is such a waste in my opinion and definitely not necessary with my team. If you have enough time to "bleed" out of tp in FL, then there's already an issue since killing the opposing team is the objective in order to claim a spot. Even if I did run out of tp, I just use enliven to restore it.

-My team isn't focused on getting high damage, it's focused on killing the enemy team as fast & effectively as possible and winning FL.

[DxWings]

Gonna break you guys' discussions a bit but playing in FL as PLD. I find the class to be lacking without coordination.
How do you guys burst with a PLD in Sword Oath? I sure can't do it for the life of me. :/
Even when I'm stunlocking people it feels like I'm doing it on the wrong target.
So I switched to BRD. And I find them having a lot of utilities.
Just a little information for those wanting to build an actual Tier list.
1. Foe's Requiem is the only song a BRD should be playing and should be playing right before engaging.
2. Blast Shot -> Shadowbind can keep casters outside of casting range who are standing a little outwards from everyone else. Shadowbind can also keep players from running away. Bind them, wait for your melee players to catch up and start pounding on them if they don't use purify.
3. BRD can cross class Feint from LNC which inflicts slow on the target reducing their skill/spell speed by 20% for 10 secs. Continuous use has diminished returns. This makes it easier for caster interrupts.
4. BRD can also do burst periodically due to the short CDs they possess. (hawk's eye, Raging strikes, Blood for Blood, Internal Release and Barrage)
5. Last but not least AoE interrupts. If the enemy casters/healers like to the stand in the circle, Wide Volley them to death. Just watch for enaminity and stop when that buff is up to save up your TP. Speaking of TP, like the melee dps classes BRD also has access to two TP regenerating skills. Enliven and Invigorate.

Well thats all the info I have on BRD and how I play it. If you guys got any comments to help me better myself on FL, feel free to let me know!

[Deelo]

Stuff

I don't think you're understanding whats being said...

He's not talking about playing PLD as a DPS (which seems to mean using no stuns according to your statements). He's saying PLD is more useful in DPS **gear**. You can still stun lock or whatever in STR/DET/CRIT gear...except now, your target will for sure die faster because your auto-attacks and off-GCD abilities will do more damage while you're stunning. Those healers you're talking about are going to die faster. Isn't that the point? After the healers are dead, you most likely won't need to stun anymore. From then on, you're just doing great damage to the rest of the enemy team and watching them melt. What is the argument here? Maybe I missed something. If I did, I apologize.

[Skeet]

Maybe I missed something. If I did, I apologize.

You probably did since we both already know and do that lol

Monk #8? These tier lists really do have no merit.

Idk if he's trolling or not. He still hasn't answered why he put BLM as #1 lol.

-Instead of just trashing tiers, why not make one of your own. Better than just saying so and so's list sucks. It's supposed to be a community effort after all.

[Vaeria]

Sorry for delay in response. Jumped to Tonberry/Elemental and have had so much FL (9pm pst -9am pst during JP times) haven't had time to do anything else at night..including sleep >_>; Anyhu...picked BLM as #1 spot for a couple of reasons. I value offensive approaches over defensive ones and blm just has a huge hand in everything. Has a LB that, with sleepga can clear flags w/o any assistance (seeing 4 + healers that you've been trying to shut down for 10 minutes suddenly get broken in half by 1 blm is just...) Lets see..blm crits. They have no penalty as far as range or position (that I know of) and..as of last night...I've had the privilige of seeing what happens when 3 blms can sync Flare. This, coupled with the fact that I/we have taken flags w/o any healers present at all (blms were there though) just put blms at the top. They have their weaknesses (so does every other job) but if allowed to run free, they pose a threat like no other DPS comes close to.

[Vaeria]

About mnk...no offense Houston but I can only base these Tier lists on personal experience (it may be cheating but in the case of mnk vs drg, I'm also recalling WD fights too) Mnk has no ranged attacks (don't mean Shoulder Tackle) to start with so as long as they can't reach ya, can't hit ya. While this goes for all other melee classes, during kite stage, mnk has lowest def. Drg, with Elusive Jump, has 2 forms of Purify..mnk..has 1. Drg has the ability to nullify its positional penalties. Mnk..doesn't. Sigh..then theres burst. One Inch Punch might be taken kindve seriously by schs, but whms laugh at it. Ranged, defensively, offensively, theres just nothing mnk can do that another class can't do better. ...except brd...who has no LB and *cough* no burst. *Hear that Yoshi? We brds are at teh bottom of list so moar abilities prz.*