Please re-evaluate the difficulty of previous endgame content on the DF

[Fendred]

There is no precedence anywhere else in the game that Twintania would use a move like Fireballs either.
Or that Caduceus would eat slimes to remove damage stacks.
Or that Titan would place people in Gaols...

Hold on now, you were originally stating that it should be plainly obvious to a person who has never seen or heard of the fight before, but has done all previous content would automatically assume that all of Twintania's attacks will be without telegraphs simply by seeing his first two phases. That was what my comment was directed at. Your examples of Cad and ADS don't really count here because new players are literate enough in the UI and on what buffs and debuffs are by the time they reach those encounters.

The difference between Allagan Rot and Dive Bombs is that with Allagan Rot, after the players die once, they are formulating a strategy to deal with it. Those same new players exposed to Dive Bombs are learning for the first time how to use the camera to keep track of an arial target and dodge its non-telegraphed attacks. In example one they are learning to deal with a mechanic. In example 2 they are fighting the controls while trying to do the same thing. That shouldn't happen in an end game encounter if the earlier content did what it was supposed to do.

That's all I've been saying. Why is the concept of new players fighting controls they were never taught to use up to that point so hard for my fellow hardcore gamers to understand?

[saeedaisspecial]

Hold on now, you were originally stating that it should be plainly obvious to a person who has never seen or heard of the fight before, but has done all previous content would automatically assume that all of Twintania's attacks will be without telegraphs simply by seeing his first two phases. Also, the game did nothing to make players literate enough in the camera controls to properly analyze the attack. Your examples of Cad and ADS don't really count here because new players are literate enough in the UI and on what buffs and debuffs are by the time they reach those encounters.

The difference between Allagan Rot and Dive Bombs is that with Allagan Rot, after they die once, they are figuring out a strategy to deal with it. Those same new players exposed to Dive Bombs are learning for the first time how to use the camera to keep track of an arial target and dodge its non-telegraphed attacks. In example one they are learning to deal with a mechanic. In example 2 they are fighting the controls while trying to do the same thing. That shouldn't happen in an end game encounter if the earlier content did what it was supposed to do perfectly.

That's all I've been saying. Why is the concept of new players fighting controls they were never taught to use up to that point so hard for my fellow hardcore gamers to understand?

My point was that you're constantly going to be thrown with new mechanics, where each one will kill you if you fail to perform them. That is the entire nature of mechanics. If you don't perform them, you die.
I never said it should be "plainly obvious", I said that you should be expecting something like that. There is a huge difference.
By saying things such as:

They built the dive bombs to 100% of the time cause wipes on every party who ever enters the fight for the first time. That is the definition of a cheap shot in my book.

You are acting as if mechanics should be performable on the first encounter, which is ridiculous. There are lots of mechanics in this game that are going to kill you the first time you see them.
There are also lots of mechanics that exist in their own bubbles that never appear outside of those specific fights. That is how you keep the fights fresh. Coil is pretty much saying from the get go "You are going to see things you've never seen anywhere before".
I can't wait to see you go into Turn 6 and then complain that Blighted Bouquet is killing you. I can see it now "What the hell! No where in the game do I have to stop doing anything!"
To a lot of players, figuring out these mechanics is the most interesting part of the entire fight. If we knew everything was coming beforehand, it would be incredibly boring.

[Fendred]

My point was that you're constantly going to be thrown with new mechanics, where each one will kill you if you fail to perform them. That is the entire nature of mechanics. If you don't perform them, you die.

Yes, I totally agree. That isn't what I'm talking about though. I'm simply saying that those new players who were awesome enough to get a group for that content aren't going to be literate enough in the camera controls to deal with the mechanic as easily as they deal with allagan rot or the turn 4 dance. There needed to be some kind of fight earlier in the game that forced the players into learn about those controls in the same way they were forced to learn how to use the other UI elements. That wasn't done, so the fight had a higher attrition rate than it really needed to back when it was still current content.

[saeedaisspecial]

Yes, I totally agree. That isn't what I'm talking about though. I'm simply saying that those new players who were awesome enough to get a group for that content aren't going to be literate enough in the camera controls to deal with the mechanic as easily as they deal with allagan rot or the turn 4 dance. There needed to be some kind of fight earlier in the game that forced the players into learn about those controls in the same way they were forced to learn how to use the other UI elements. That wasn't done, so the fight had a higher attrition rate than it really needed to.

No, there didn't.
That's how mechanics work. When you encounter them, you learn how to deal with them however they present themselves. If you couldn't instantly figure out that you needed to start looking around the map the first time you see a divebomb go off, you have issues.
Are you going to tell me that Ifrit is cheap too because you had to turn your camera around to see which way he's charging from? It's the exact same thing.

[Sove92]

No, there didn't.
That's how mechanics work. When you encounter them, you learn how to deal with them however they present themselves.
Are you going to tell me that Ifrit is cheap too because you had to turn your camera around to see which way he's charging from? It's the exact same thing.

Sounds like enough camera practice for T5 to me, you need to look around to see where the attack is coming from.

[Ryaan]

Yes, I totally agree. That isn't what I'm talking about though. I'm simply saying that those new players who were awesome enough to get a group for that content aren't going to be literate enough in the camera controls to deal with the mechanic as easily as they deal with allagan rot or the turn 4 dance. There needed to be some kind of fight earlier in the game that forced the players into learn about those controls in the same way they were forced to learn how to use the other UI elements. That wasn't done, so the fight had a higher attrition rate than it really needed to back when it was still current content.

I don't know why you keep mentioning they HAVE to learn camera control for divebombs. I have never moved my camera when divebombs are coming down. When I first went into the fight I read guides to help me know whats coming (there were a few by the time I got to T5) and I found a way to adjust without having to move the camera. As a lala if I got the marker I wouldn't see it over the taller races (have a few roegies in my group) so I turned up the volume for battle sounds, turned off the music and just listened. Everyone was stacked well enough and you move when ya hear it. If camera movements aren't your thing you find a way to adjust. I feel you don't think highly enough of the standard players capabilities.

[Fendred]

I don't know why you keep mentioning they HAVE to learn camera control for divebombs. I have never moved my camera when divebombs are coming down. When I first went into the fight I read guides to help me know whats coming (there were a few by the time I got to T5) and I found a way to adjust without having to move the camera. As a lala if I got the marker I wouldn't see it over the taller races (have a few roegies in my group) so I turned up the volume for battle sounds, turned off the music and just listened. Everyone was stacked well enough and you move when ya hear it...

My original point is that the difficulty curve for leveling content was set too low. Players should have been dealing with fights at least at the level of the HM primal battles at levels 45 to 50 and not afterwards. MMO communities tend to be more forgiving of failure during the leveling experience than end game because the expectations are different, and there isn't a case of statistical power inflation. The reason this is not the case is that SE needed money. They knew they could maximize initial box sales by making a game that has mass appeal, but little staying power with casual gamers due to the requirement of end game difficulty to maintain mainstream gamer interest. However, part of creating a good MMORPG is understanding the social ramifications for different design decisions and how those ramifications effect the ability of players to complete the content. SE purposely made a design decision that was good for their wallets in a time when they were strapped for cash, but not good for the health of their community.

The whole Twintania ranting was the result of a bunch of people taking my original post out of context because the topic of the thread has them up in arms and attacking anything in sight.

[Sove92]

The difference between Allagan Rot and Dive Bombs is that with Allagan Rot, after the players die once, they are formulating a strategy to deal with it.

When players die to Divebomb, they start formulating a strategy to deal with it. No difference.

Btw, CT2 has divebombs, they work the exact same way, just more forgiving.

[ispano]

When players die to Divebomb, they start formulating a strategy to deal with it. No difference.

Btw, CT2 has divebombs, they work the exact same way, just more forgiving.

Actually the ones in Syrcus Tower work like T9 Divebombs.