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  1. #1
    Player
    Fendred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    956
    Character
    Valentyne Laska
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Dancer Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Hybris-Maenad View Post
    Having to figure out and learn a mechanic is a cheap shot?

    Really dude, just stay out of endgame if something like this seems unreasonable to you. This is not the kind of game you want it to be.
    If every fight involving a flying monster up until that point involved telegraphs on the ground combined with the fact the dive bomb will one shot the players if they do not respond at max pace, yes, it is a cheap shot.

    It isn't a matter of skill if the game didn't do anything up until that point to render such a skill necessary. That's like putting a guy with no boxing experience into the ring with Mohammed Ali and expecting him not to be KOed in under 30 seconds. Seriously?

    Again, blame the ridiculously low difficulty curve on leveling content. That is the reason these problems even exist.
    (0)
    Last edited by Fendred; 08-02-2014 at 08:09 AM.

  2. #2
    Player
    Urielparadox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    500
    Character
    Smily Kweh
    World
    Maduin
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Fendred View Post
    If every fight involving a flying monster up until that point involved telegraphs on the ground combined with the fact the dive bomb will one shot the players if they do not respond at max pace, yes, it is a cheap shot.

    .
    umm wrong also I corrected that statement already and you ignored it. Divebomb does not do enough damage at all to 1 shot players pre echo, the players would have to be knocked backwards, which if they are even just a few steps forward they will be knocked forward, and not into a wall, and thus not killed.

    Divebombs are also a phase where if someone dies, raise them it's a very easy phase to do it.
    My question to you is this, because i'm extremely confused right now, Why haven't you read a guide or watch a video? If you are going at this blind, and learning blind. expect to put in as much or more time as the people who first go the victory did, what your asking for is to go into a hard dungeon, and beat it as if it was a lvl 50 dungeon, and your going in at i110, with no mechanics in the whole fight, simply because you don't want to read a guide.......................................................................... not only do you not want help from anyone, you don't also don't want to learn a fight, and you can't think of ways to handle mechanics. You said yourself, moving your camera to see the boss is just to wild of a concept for you... even though you did it on every primal, and in every turn prior to t5.
    (2)

  3. #3
    Player
    Fendred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    956
    Character
    Valentyne Laska
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Dancer Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Urielparadox View Post
    umm wrong also I corrected that statement already and you ignored it. Divebomb does not do enough damage at all to 1 shot players pre echo, the players would have to be knocked backwards, which if they are even just a few steps forward they will be knocked forward, and not into a wall, and thus not killed.
    In 2.1, if your group failed to dodge a single dive bomb, you were done. Period. There was no recovery. It was a guaranteed wipe. One or two people failing to dodge is recoverable. You are playing that same encounter with much higher item levels, thus buffing your hp. Not to mention there are more than enough people around who have done the fight regularly to keep the wiping at a minimum by now.

    My point still stands. The curve on leveling content was way too low and stuff like the Twin dive bombs had no prior proxy to be compared to. Stone Vigil boss doesn't count because of telegraphs, so players were just trained to look down at the ground when things go flying in the air. Enough said.
    (0)
    Last edited by Fendred; 08-02-2014 at 08:35 AM.

  4. #4
    Player
    Sove92's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    1,242
    Character
    Soveia Shadowsong
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Fendred View Post
    In 2.1, if your group failed to dodge a single dive bomb, you were done. Period. There was no recovery. It was a guaranteed wipe. One or two people failing to dodge is recoverable. You are playing that same encounter with much higher item levels, thus buffing your hp. Not to mention there are more than enough people around who have done the fight regularly to keep the wiping at a minimum by now.

    My point still stands. The curve on leveling content was way too low and stuff like the Twin dive bombs had no prior proxy to be compared to. Stone Vigil boss doesn't count because of telegraphs, so players were just trained to look down at the ground when things go flying in the air. Enough said.
    Had that happen, still won. Your point fails. If you don't want to learn mechanics, you need to stay out of endgame. If the game gave you a telegraph telling you to get out for every mechanic, there would be no difficulty.
    (3)
    Last edited by Sove92; 08-02-2014 at 08:39 AM.

  5. #5
    Player
    Fendred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    956
    Character
    Valentyne Laska
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Dancer Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Sove92 View Post
    Had that happen, still won. Your point fails. If you don't want to learn mechanics, you need to stay out of endgame. If the game gave you a telegraph telling you to get out for every mechanic, there would be no difficulty.
    Read my previous posts, because you are taking what I'm saying out of its original context. Also, you are talking to a person who beat the encounter he is talking about back in 2.1, so I'm pretty sure I learn mechanics just fine.

    I've been raiding for 10+ years in games like these. I think I can recognize well done mechanics from those that are just intentionally designed to screw players. Given the previous focus of the game, that encounter was designed specifically to waste a ton of time, and for all the wrong reasons.
    (0)
    Last edited by Fendred; 08-02-2014 at 08:57 AM.

  6. #6
    Player
    saeedaisspecial's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    290
    Character
    Kool Kat
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Alchemist Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Fendred View Post
    In 2.1, if your group failed to dodge a single dive bomb, you were done. Period. There was no recovery. It was a guaranteed wipe. One or two people failing to dodge is recoverable. You are playing that same encounter with much higher item levels, thus buffing your hp. Not to mention there are more than enough people around who have done the fight regularly to keep the wiping at a minimum by now.

    My point still stands. The curve on leveling content was way too low and stuff like the Twin dive bombs had no prior proxy to be compared to. Stone Vigil boss doesn't count because of telegraphs, so players were just trained to look down at the ground when things go flying in the air. Enough said.
    The ignorance is astounding.
    No AoE in Twintania is given any ground marker as indication. This should be your first sign to look elsewhere for enemy attacks.
    The very first things in Turn 5 you fight, the Wyvern adds, use Liquid Hell with no AoE ground marker. Next, you get introduced with phase 2, which tells you that you'll be getting markers above your head as indicators as what to do.
    When you add both of these two things together, phase 3 (this is the one with the divebomby things!) is simply a combination of the two things you have previously learned.

    For whatever reason, with all the information available online, and your supposed 10 years of raid experience you weren't able to put two and two together.
    (3)
    Last edited by saeedaisspecial; 08-02-2014 at 09:02 AM.

  7. #7
    Player
    Fendred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    956
    Character
    Valentyne Laska
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Dancer Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial View Post
    The ignorance is astounding.
    All the abilities prior to dive bombs are completely unrelated to dive bombs. There are fights, like the first boss in SV, who use a mix of telegraphed and non-telegraphed attacks. There is no precedence early in the fight to indicate Twin would even use such an attack. Only way to know about dive bombs is to read about it or experience the fight. And since a new player trying to draw on his previous experience with similar mechanics will lead him to failure, yeah, its a guaranteed death.

    The best of new players would probably be hit by the attack a bare minimum of two times before he starts to dodge properly. First time its just going to one shot him and he's going to be asking what happened. Second time he'll be looking at the sky, but will still get hit due to being unable to react fast enough. Third time he'd have a chance at dodging it.
    (0)
    Last edited by Fendred; 08-02-2014 at 09:13 AM.

  8. #8
    Player
    saeedaisspecial's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    290
    Character
    Kool Kat
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Alchemist Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Fendred View Post
    All the abilities prior to dive bombs are completely unrelated to dive bombs. There are fights, like the first boss in SV, who use a mix of telegraphed and non-telegraphed attacks. There is no precedence early in the fight to indicate Twin would even use such an attack. Only way to know about dive bombs is to read about it or experience the fight.
    There is no precedence anywhere else in the game that Twintania would use a move like Fireballs either.
    Or that Caduceus would eat slimes to remove damage stacks.
    Or that Titan would place people in Gaols.
    Or that ADS would do Rot
    Or that mechanic you fought for the first time would actually be a mechanic.
    The first time you encounter a new mechanic, you will always be thrown off guard, this is the nature of mechanics. By complaining about SE introducing new mechanics you may as well ask them to stop making new ones.
    The fact is, there was enough information in the first two phases to let you know that something like Divebombs may occur.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fendred View Post
    The best of new players would probably be hit by the attack a bare minimum of two times before he starts to dodge properly. First time its just going to one shot him and he's going to be asking what happened. Second time he'll be looking at the sky, but will still get hit due to being unable to react fast enough. Third time he'd have a chance at dodging it.
    This entire paragraph... What.
    I just don't even. The way you're posting and arguing is as if you think every encounter should be defeatable by a group of players all going through blind.
    You are supposed to die and figure out mechanics, that is the entire point of raiding. You need to learn, you need to practice, you need to figure out how to deal with the mechanics.
    If it were possible to instantly pass mechanics then the fight would be unsuitable for raiding.
    (5)
    Last edited by saeedaisspecial; 08-02-2014 at 09:16 AM.

  9. #9
    Player
    Fendred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    956
    Character
    Valentyne Laska
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Dancer Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial View Post
    There is no precedence anywhere else in the game that Twintania would use a move like Fireballs either.
    Or that Caduceus would eat slimes to remove damage stacks.
    Or that Titan would place people in Gaols...
    Hold on now, you were originally stating that it should be plainly obvious to a person who has never seen or heard of the fight before, but has done all previous content would automatically assume that all of Twintania's attacks will be without telegraphs simply by seeing his first two phases. That was what my comment was directed at. Your examples of Cad and ADS don't really count here because new players are literate enough in the UI and on what buffs and debuffs are by the time they reach those encounters.

    The difference between Allagan Rot and Dive Bombs is that with Allagan Rot, after the players die once, they are formulating a strategy to deal with it. Those same new players exposed to Dive Bombs are learning for the first time how to use the camera to keep track of an arial target and dodge its non-telegraphed attacks. In example one they are learning to deal with a mechanic. In example 2 they are fighting the controls while trying to do the same thing. That shouldn't happen in an end game encounter if the earlier content did what it was supposed to do.

    That's all I've been saying. Why is the concept of new players fighting controls they were never taught to use up to that point so hard for my fellow hardcore gamers to understand?
    (1)
    Last edited by Fendred; 08-02-2014 at 09:41 AM.

  10. #10
    Player
    Hybris-Maenad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    141
    Character
    Hybris Maenad
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Archer Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Fendred View Post
    My point still stands. The curve on leveling content was way too low and stuff like the Twin dive bombs had no prior proxy to be compared to.
    You would think that any group that was able to even get to divebombs would figure out that something appearing over someones head would indicate that something dangerous was about to happen.

    You have no argument whatsoever, just go. You're obviously unable to pick up on game mechanics. If you're having a problem in duty finder, it's probably because of you.
    (2)

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