this is getting Ridiculous

[Alukah]

I had a GM say that pulling early repeatably knowing people are coming is considered a griefing tactic because it's the same reason resetting mobs is against ToS and considered a griefing tactic. It's because it "interrupts the progress of other players".

I'd like to see the proof.

Finite resource vs something everyone can get credit for.
Terrible analogy.

No there isn't, it's purely enmity based.
That's why so many groups run lots of healers/tanks to generate as much enmity as possible in a short time.
There is not limit to how many people or groups can obtain full credit.

When you say everyone can get credit, are you talking about everyone in your LS? Unless we're playing different games, not everyone can get full credit if there's too many people, they die way too fast.

[ispano]

I'd like to see the proof.

Now that his meaning is clarified, I'm actually inclined to believe him. Back before FATE mobs were provoke immune they said to report people who intentionally reset them. No reason it wouldn't apply, even though you can't provoke. So constantly resetting to prevent someone from killing the mob, even though you're trying to save it for your group... yeah I could see them saying that's griefing.

But he's saying that pulling early is also griefing and it was confirmed by GMs, I want to see that.

We clarified that's not what he meant. You should read the rest of my back and forth with him.

Yeah, and they will have nothing to do... WAIT, JUST LIKE NOW.

Not quite. They would get their full sets in weeks, maybe a month or two.... and burn themselves out on the content, possibly unsubbing.

I know exactly what I want.

Keyword of the bit this responds to, "most".

Lockouts weren't in FFXI (not so heavy anyway, you could do Dynamis every 72 hours) and you could raid every night.

No, you just had low drop rates. Which is what I pointed out would happen if they were unlocked. Yoshi even mentioned once that the two alternatives were our current locks, or very low drop rates, but unlocked. He felt this was better. And many people agree. You don't, we get it, doesn't mean it's bad this way.

Because CT is a 24 men long ass raid that drops level 100 useless items and with sleep inducing difficulty and which only worthy reward is dropped from the end boss with a 1/3 chance and then 1/8 chance. Please, don't compare it to coil.

Not comparing to coil. Not to mention, you just helped my argument when you mentioned the drop chance of "the only worthy item". People don't like low drop rates, and that's not even low. I would not want something like Coil, with a loot lockout like CT. I would just get too burned out on it. Especially later on once you have a fair amount of the pieces you need/want.

Also, more of a response to something you said earlier. Preventing people from getting gear too fast is a VERY good reason, whether you want to agree or not.

[Alukah]

Now that his meaning is clarified, I'm actually inclined to believe him. Back before FATE mobs were provoke immune they said to report people who intentionally reset them. No reason it wouldn't apply, even though you can't provoke. So constantly resetting to prevent someone from killing the mob, even though you're trying to save it for your group... yeah I could see them saying that's griefing.

But he's saying that pulling early is also griefing and it was confirmed by GMs, I want to see that.

[Taruranto]

I never said a specific drop, like CT. I meant for something to drop AT ALL. Typically for top end content, if you have it unlocked, the drop rates are not 100%. And even if they're really low, people blow through the content in very little time.

Yeah, and they will have nothing to do... WAIT, JUST LIKE NOW.

No, they don't. Most people only look at what they think they want.

I know exactly what I want.

They never look at it from other people's views or even the developer's views. If unlocked content was such a great idea, why hasn't there been any decent games which used that system?

Lockouts weren't in FFXI (not so heavy anyway, you could do Dynamis every 72 hours) and you could raid every night.

Besides the lack of difficulty, and having to deal with trolls and whatnot in CT, why do many of us find CT boring as hell?

Because CT is a 24 men long ass raid that drops level 100 useless items and with sleep inducing difficulty and which only worthy reward is dropped from the end boss with a 1/3 chance and then 1/8 chance. Please, don't compare it to coil.

[Edeline]

Terrible analogy, how? Is it that you think everyone can actually get full credit? The more people there are, the less time you have to generate aggro. The less aggro, lower contribution. Lower contribution, lower rewards.

And you also forgot to mention you can't even tag the mob to get enmity.

[Kinseykinz]

I had a GM say that pulling early repeatably knowing people are coming is considered a griefing tactic because it's the same reason resetting mobs is against ToS and considered a griefing tactic. It's because it "interrupts the progress of other players".

The ONLY way I could see this being a 'griefing tactic' is if you verbally agreed to waiting for others to arrive either in /p /ls /FC or /sh ...or if you knowingly joined a group that had such rules (aka Hunt Linkshell). Because SE has set in place a 'grey area' of the rule book that if you agree to a specific party rule/drop lot etc, and then go against it after saying 'sure no problem' you can be in trouble for not keeping your end of the deal. But that's only additional player agreements that are busted. (Like WHM comes into ST and says 'anyone mind if I lot on the MNK body if it drops, I really need it' and you say 'sure NP and then Need lot it and win it when it drops' They can report you ...and win. But if you said 'Uh, I want it too, so sorry but no' They can't do crap because the game's actual rules on lotting are role and if you win=yours.

So I assume the same can be said of hunt groups. If you agree to their rules, and then don't follow them=griefing. If you never agreed in the first place, no issues, pull however you want.

But no, a solo player, small group, band of strangers who see it first and pull it, there is no 'griefing' in that.

[Lamentations]

Existing mechanics can be misused for griefing and personal advantage, that is reason exists a GM service, or else we don't even need it. Your reasoning to not ban people because they pay the subs, implies no one paying the sub can be banned, with consequence anyone paying the sub is free to do whatever he please in game. Hope you now understand how that reasoning is flawed.

Ill come back later and see what they decided to do, feel free to attend or not it's your choice.

You can pull on your shiny armor and lobby for justice, they will worry about paying the bills.

They will adjust the mechanics for people who do it silently, they will ban a few tanks who get caught with screenshots proving intention as examples, (probably people they see in their data who sub 4-8 weeks out of every 12), they will make them all force pop/claim like they should have in the first place which will lead to cries of no open world content again, or they will make hunts useless altogether and solve all these issues that way.

Doesn't matter which decision they make, the bottom line and how it will be affected will be taken into consideration, it's business.

Stories abound about how shard/bots were reported from day one at launch and were still around weeks/months later, or about how someone who was reported for abusing mechanics still hasn't been banned after (insert time frame here).

While knights in shining armor pray to game developer gods to administer justice in their fantasy world, the developer gods live in the real world with rent/mortgages/power bills and payroll.

A large number of bans isn't going to happen.

Unless you were born over 35 years ago I have been playing video games longer than you have lived, and I am well aware of why GM's exist, but thanks for the tip.

[Dwill]

So they can halt our progresses.

Too bad it makes content feel like a job and makes you unable to play with your friends. Didn't you guys learn anything from Coil lockout?

Halting the progress so that there is enough content for people to do in between patches. It would be ridiculous for everyone to run around in full soldiery and coil gears in less than two weeks after a patch.

Most lockouts exists for a reason and a good one.

[Sapphic]

But no, a solo player, small group, band of strangers who see it first and pull it, there is no 'griefing' in that.

The griefing comes from the verbal abuse those who didn't get credit for the kill, didn't get there in time so proceed to pollute chat with obscenities. Funny thing is that I've noticed is those most vocal about missing out are usually the ones who pull as soon as they see it.

But, we as a community should start reporting those players that throw out abusive and foul insults due to their feelings of entitlement.

As, without checking, foul language that is being used after in open chat is a reportable offence.

[Dwill]

Lockouts weren't in FFXI (not so heavy anyway, you could do Dynamis every 72 hours) and you could raid every night.

And you had extremely low drop rate on anything you wanted as a result. I'm pretty sure any FFXI veterans who has done salvage has heard or seen story about people having terrible luck with their items necessary. People who camped for hours in sea and sky hoping to get some spawns for the ZNM. Or the low chance at claiming every HNM in the world with an even lower chance at getting their items (D.ring and Ridill being prime example). And none of these could really be called raid per say. The only things close to a raid were Dynamis and Limbus.