I just wanted to point out a double standard...

[Tiggy]

you dont need to go and point it out how poor the other is with sarcasm and demeaning words and attitude..most peopel think they are not horrible towards others but ...unfortunately they are since all they do is kick the poor guy that may not even have a clue how to better his problem eh?

This precludes the possibility of there existing people that have pride in producing high damage, but at the same time are genuinely nice people who help people using nothing but kind and encouraging words. They do exist. They aren't some unicorn found only in myth.

Treating everyone with high damage as some elitist pig is WRONG. It makes you just as bad as the people you seem not to like.

[Lemon8or]

Gah, you're missing the forest for the trees. Just...nevermind.

I don't see how I'm missing the forest when you said this:

To clarify, I meant they don't mean anything in telling you that someone is doing good DPS

It does mean something. If a monk is able to keep GL3 all fight, he is doing much better DPS than if he didn't. It takes 9 GCD or Perfect Balance to get back into GL3 mode so the attacks you're padding during then is not doing as much damage as it should. With my gears, a True Strike can do upwards of 1050 damage. Without GL3, that same True Strike would do 826 damage. That's just a single skill. So yeah if I spot a monk losing GL3 when he shouldn't, he's not doing good DPS.

I play a healer too and I prefer seeing it. So...I don't get your point. Also "cripple" is overreacting. The DPS loss is utterly negligible and there's no reason to lose GL3 when doing it either. It's not required to drop GL3 to perform the switch.

It's different for different people. I play healer and I agree with the one you're quoting. Like I said, Fist abilities has a recast timer of 3 seconds so the best you can do with it is to sacrifice 1 GCD ability to keep up GL. Sometimes you don't have that kind of margin. For example, in Titan EX, you're about to hit Snap Punch but Titan jumps so you didn't connect so you have about 5 seconds left on GL3 timer. Now when he lands for Geocrush, you have to hit Snap Punch immediately as soon as he's targetable or you would and will lose GL3 and end up in GL1. Factor in the Fist of Fire change, you either do 5% less damage on that Snap Punch or not even able to get GL1. I'd prefer keeping Fist of Fire compared to the alternatives. Why? Because sometimes you don't have the leisure to wait 1 or 2 seconds. My first turn 8 kill was with 2 seconds left on the enrage timer. If I had chosen to take less damage, it would have been a wipe. I know you haven't gotten to encounters that you need to push your DPS as best as possible so you probably wouldn't know.

[AmnesiaHaze]

i feel like people have too high expectations on others in this game , it can be partially caused by the unforgiving game mechanics i guess, i noticed the more unforgiving mechanics in that particular instance , the more hostility (ct for example ) , anyways my point is people should be more patient with others and not taking a good team as something granted , instead of insulting try helping less experienced people and challenge themselves to complete it even under harder conditions

[Dwill]

Snip

Extreme generalization based on anecdotal evidences provides no weight to your argument whatsoever. A lot of people love to use parses to be able to compare themselves, how they can improve, how they can help improve others. Not everyone that loves to be competitive is an egomaniacal jerk.

People are taking the might be harassed thing way to the extreme. While yes, people get harassed over poor performance once in a blue moon, it will happen regardless of having parsers or not.

Parsers are not the devil, they are tools that can VASTLY enhance the gameplay of a lot of people in meaninful way and can be a huge assets to guild that want to raid and are looking in ways to legitally improve their group's performance.

Oh and your stance on parsers mixed with what your signature is saying is just totally ironic, turth be told.

[MeiUshu]

ahh but it does when it relates to me, I cant speak for others do I? I dont generalize either, based on my experience and knowledge, 100 % of all those that used parsers where I was concerned were bad, uneducated and insulting, there was no exception to this. If you re-read what I said, I did say this much that I have YET to meet nice people or even decent people when it comes to the use of parsers. So in my experience, knowledge and the like, there are no good people to this, until I meet one and it doesnt exist yet. How can you say is generalizing is beyond me or maybe I wasnt clear happens, also who are you to tell me I have to say NOT ALl are bad, when I only met bad people ? see my point

Mei

[Dwill]

ahh but it does when it relates to me, I cant speak for others do I? I dont generalize either, based on my experience and knowledge, 100 % of all those that used parsers where I was concerned were bad, uneducated and insulting, there was no exception to this. If you re-read what I said, I did say this much that I have YET to meet nice people or even decent people when it comes to the use of parsers.

Therefore my argument stands...

Mei

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalization
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dicti...generalization
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anecdotal

Read these and then tell me you're not making sweeping generalization totally based of on your own anecdotal evidence. Your arguments holds no weight whatsoever in this discussion.

[Tiggy]

ahh but it does when it relates to me, I cant speak for others do I? I dont generalize either, based on my experience and knowledge, 100 % of all those that used parsers where I was concerned were bad, uneducated and insulting, there was no exception to this. If you re-read what I said, I did say this much that I have YET to meet nice people or even decent people when it comes to the use of parsers. So in my experience, knowledge and the like, there are no good people to this, until I meet one and it doesnt exist yet. How can you say is generalizing is beyond me or maybe I wasnt clear happens, also who are you to tell me I have to say NOT ALl are bad, when I only met bad people ? see my point

Mei

How about all those people using parsers that did great damage but you never knew they did? I guarantee you meet them, but because they aren't terrible people you never knew. Humans have a tendency to only notice and remember bad things.

The simple fact is you don't have statistics for every player you encounter. You don't know who has a parser and who doesn't. You only know that people who start trying to correct other players most likely do. You have ZERO information on how many people you've encountered that used a parser right there in your party without ever causing a single problem. This is why anecdotes are useless information.

[givemeraptors]

It does mean something. If a monk is able to keep GL3 all fight, he is doing much better DPS than if he didn't.

Yes, I know. I was just trying to shorten my response. To clarify, GL3 to me is like a baseline; if your MNK can't keep up their stacks then the DPS question is moot to begin with and how in the world did they get to Turn 8 without being able to maintain that? In any event, you still don't need a parser to see that. A more holistic approach is better for MNKs, but like I've said before, they are the hardest class to gauge from a distance. Less flashy moves, hard to keep track of whether they're hitting all positionals, etc. That could just be me though.

My first turn 8 kill was with 2 seconds left on the enrage timer. If I had chosen to take less damage, it would have been a wipe. I know you haven't gotten to encounters that you need to push your DPS as best as possible so you probably wouldn't know.

I get that you won't always be able to switch fists during a fight. But it is possible to do so without a DPS loss in many cases. If I see a MNK doing so while also keeping GL3 up I will think they are better than a MNK that doesn't switch fists and maintains GL3. Am I expecting it? Not at all. But If I see it, the former gets my commendation and maybe a friend request.

Whether I've gotten to Second Coil is moot. Second Coil isn't the only time you would need to push your DPS to the limit. Maybe a DD died/dc'd during Titan Ex heart phase. Heck, maybe you're the only one left standing at the Demon Wall in Amdapor Keep and it still has 40% health. Second Coil isn't the end all/be all when it comes to amazing DPS. The bar is set higher to begin with, definitely. But extenuating circumstances can push that bar up in non-coil content as well. Just look at the people complaining about the required ilvl for Haukke HM. Those players definitely wish their "undergeared" DPS were generating the best DPS possible.

Which brings us back to parsers because good DPS in this game is valuable. But maximum potential DPS? The way FFXIV is designed means that almost no encounter will ever need the maximum possible DPS to beat. Without Echo (sometimes even with) how many full parties, i.e. all eight players, are actually entering Extreme primals or Coil with the minimal ilvl required? How many light/full parties are entering anything at the minimum ilvl? It is possible to beat the fight at those levels, and anything higher is that much more leeway you have.

But even then, this argument isn't about trying to maximize DPS using parsers, it's about pinpointing the weak link in a party using parsers. And as I've stated repeatedly, from my perspective I think it's possible to do so without parsers, and from that standpoint alone I don't think they are necessary.

[NoctisUmbra]

If a tank plays badly, he loses hate or is unable to properly mitigate a specific phase/skill and dies due to taking far too much damage.

If a healer plays badly, people in the party die to unavoidable damage (typically the tank) even when it is of a reasonable amount.

When the party's DPS is low, it is noticed by the fights taking longer. However, the typical party double the DPS players in it. Simply pointing out that DPS isn't where it needs to be often leads to each dps player saying they are doing fine, essentially implying it is somebody else. Politics.

I've had it happen when I tanked and wiped repeatedly due to adds not dying fast enough or boss fight taking way too long, and when I asked the DPS about it (in the nicest way possible, remaining fully positive and constructive even as my patience wore incredibly thin) they would say they were doing fine and even say exactly what they should be doing as what they were doing. As if they memorized it, but couldn't execute and refused to admit it.

I've also had it happen when I played as a DPS among many, though to a lesser degree as I would carry more than my end of the weight by performing damn near optimally. I'm a DPS main, and my chief pleasure in playing XIV is being able to put out maximum levels of DPS on each job. Even then, bosses would take considerably longer to kill than what would be expected based on the gear level of the DPS. When brought up, more deflection.

Ultimately, parsers cut right through that crap. Is somebody under-performing? It says so right there in the data. The problem comes from how people chose to make use of this information they now have access to - and that's the reason SE is careful/conservative when it comes to this. I'm of the opinion that more transparency in party performance is a good thing, and people need to learn to make constructive use of the info. Saves a lot of time that is otherwise wasted playing the blame game.

[Tiggy]

Whether I've gotten to Second Coil is moot. Second Coil isn't the only time you would need to push your DPS to the limit.

Of course there are other moments, but those, as you pointed out, tend to be when errors happen and people are trying to repair a bad situation by pushing hard.

Coil 2 however requires this as a course of action where any mistake turns into a wipe with no possibility of fixing the error, and even in cases of no errors your damage may easily be too low to beat the enrage.

I'm sure you can appreciate how different the situations are.

The way FFXIV is designed means that almost no encounter will ever need the maximum possible DPS to beat.

T8 would like to have words with you. T8 absolutely requires maximum possible DPS to beat the enrage. If you're not winning because of 100 combined group DPS it can be EXTREMELY difficult to pinpoint who could be pushing 20-30 more or even if one person was 70 lower than normal and it was mostly on them to improve.

Please stop assuming all content is the same. Not all content has echo, and players haven't out geared all that content either. There is absolutely legitimately difficult content where this level of min maxing is 100% required. You're insistence that such content doesn't exist will not magically make the second coil go away.