I just wanted to point out a double standard...

[MeiUshu]

you sure you are not miusing the word BAN and KICK ?

Kicking isnt banning is a *democratical* way to get rid of what is considering a pain, is much more easier to *kill* a dps then a healer or tank since there is a lack of those two

So the double standards you are talking of are in fact a decision of the group...decision motivated by need vs use

Baning though is what you were told, meaning that people get banned by SE for harrassing a player by using third party programs to determine their value and damage dealing output.

Just me though.

Mei

[QuCont]

Has anybody bothered to point out that it isn't perfectly fine to just blurt out 'you're a sucky tank/helaer?'

If someone is playing badly, you can choose to offer your advice. Whether or not that choose to accept it is their choice. What is not acceptable, is simply berating someone for not meeting your standards, parser or not.

[Moqi]

If someone says "X you suck" I vote kick for harrassment as soon as I can, doesn't matter the class or to whom it was directed. Telling anyone they suck is not fine lol.

[Ryel]

That's the thing, though. Even friendly advice with parsed numbers is a bannable offense. There's no amount of friendliness I can imbue my statements with that will change SE's stance that using parsers will get you banned. The most I can do is be so polite that I convince my fellow players to conspire against SE and allow me to break the rules with no punishment.

For the comment that time-to-kill tells you if DPS is low, that only tells you the dps of the combined group. It won't tell you the why of the matter, only that something's up.

As to the assertion that numbers are unnecessary, I have to disagree. Say someone tells me "Hey, your DPS is a little low." This actually provides me very little information. Is my DPS barely below norms? Is it well below norms, but they're beating around the bush so I don't report them for harassment? How low is a little low? How low is well below? Now, if they say "Hey, someone with your gear should be able to squeeze out about 100 more DPS than you are," I suddenly have a much better scope of how I compare to the max. I now know that I'm probably about 75 DPS shy of the norm, and I can try to identify why. That's not possible with vague assessments, especially if it's coming from a time-to-kill measurement instead of actual numbers.

I think this is the point people are truly missing when they get up in arms in these threads about parsers.

Right now the tools in game aren't accurate in determining what needs improvement when it comes to being a DPS on end-game fights. the way the game is set up currently it's entirely possible that someone could be capable of dodging mechanics while not being able to DPS while doing so, and it could be could be for any number of reasons: Not hitting the acc cap for the encounter, bad rotation, etc. that have nothing to do with their ability to deal with the reactionary aspects of a given fight.

If someone was using a 3rd party application and saw 1 DPS only averaging in at say 50 DPS while the other 3 are averaging 300+ DPS (this is an example) how would you go about notifying them that they might be having issues? Enmity bars? Those aren't entirely accurate seeing as mechanics like tank swapping and abilities like quelling strikes make those unreliable. In addition trying to consistently monitor other people's enmity bars mid fight is counter intuitive in high mobility encounters when its much easier to look at a results page after a win or a wipe and see what did or didn't go correctly.

Honestly if someone does have accurate information regarding a DPS in party severely lagging behind and they say something along the lines of "Hey DRG is your rotation okay? you seem to be behind the other DPS by a fair margin" all they have to say is Prove it and you cant say anything that wont result in a ban.

This is compounded by the issue of us not being able to send /tells in instances so we cant even approach the subject without it coming across as an assault.

So you say kick the DPS? Okay for what? Dodging and not dying yet doing poor DPS? Isn't that vote-kick abuse which is yet another bannable offense?

There isn't a win here outside of run only with people you know

[MeiUshu]

the question is..why do you EVEN monitor others ?

Mei

[Poringing]

You know, it is entirely possible to determine relative dps values without using any 3rd party program. You do it by looking at the enmity tables. Needless to say, this involves a lot more work and manual calculation than using a parser. Giving an example using this non-parser method to calculate DPS:

Turn 2 ADS

Take a screenshot while targetting ADS when it dies/ x minutes into the fight. Open any image software (even Microsoft paint is enough for this exercise) and calculate pixels of enmity each DPS has. If BRD has made 11 pixels and MNK has made 18 pixels; you can in the end make the statement, the bard is doing 60% of the monk's DPS.

Turn 5 conflagration

Take a screenshot of the conflagration as it dies/ going to explode. Just look at the bars, don't bother calculating, the DPS with near empty enmity bar is at fault (assuming is not in conflagration).

Limitations/ Hassles:
Can't compare DPS to tanks or healers
Need to know enmity modifying skills has been used or not, by reading logs or monitoring teammates in fight or asking (and trusting).
Can't tell if accuracy is the issue or not, unless you read logs.
Can't tell if literally everyone sucks (since you're only getting relative DPS values), but the fight progression should have you thinking about this.
Need to use assumptions (need to take SMN's enmity * 1.5 as others can't see pet's enmity)
People died, but you probably have already figured out who's at fault

Yes, I have been doing this in-game. MT is always 27 pixels on my screenshots (yours may be differ using a different screenshot setting). In my opinion, this is already enough to determine if people are pulling his/ her weight. I don't actually care so much about 300 vs 325 dps in a fight, what I do care is 150 vs 300 dps. The latter will be obvious just by looking at enmity.

[Ryel]

the question is..why do you EVEN monitor others ?

Mei

Current end game fights are tuned so that a party of 8 or a near party of 8 need to be performing optimally if the difference in performance is that large and is preventing the team from progressing shouldn't improvements be made where available to ensure they can succeed? Keep in mind i'm not saying kick the person by any means but rather offer friendly and helpful advice as to how they can improve both their own performance and the overall success of the party.

It's no different that saying why do you care if your tank dies every time and the party wipes? Or why does it matter if the healer keeps the party alive? it's simply a matter of you need to do "X" in order to complete "Y" no feelings or personal bias involved it's just the way the game works.

You know, it is entirely possible to determine relative dps values without using any 3rd party program. You do it by looking at the enmity tables. Needless to say, this involves a lot more calculation than using a parser and requires a lot more work to get a solid picture of the situation. Giving an example using this non-parser method to calculate DPS:

Turn 2 ADS

Take a screenshot while targetting ADS when it dies/ x minutes into the fight. Open any image software (even Microsoft paint is enough for this exercise) and calculate pixel of enmity each DPS has. You can in the end make the statement, the bard is doing 60% of the monk's DPS.

Turn 5 conflagration

Take a screenshot of the conflagration as it dies/ going to explode. Just look at the bars, don't bother calculating, the DPS with near empty enmity bar is at fault (assuming is not in conflagration).

I actually addressed this:

If someone was using a 3rd party application and saw 1 DPS only averaging in at say 50 DPS while the other 3 are averaging 300+ DPS (this is an example) how would you go about notifying them that they might be having issues? Enmity bars? Those aren't entirely accurate seeing as mechanics like tank swapping and abilities like quelling strikes make those unreliable. In addition trying to consistently monitor other people's enmity bars mid fight is counter intuitive in high mobility encounters when its much easier to look at a results page after a win or a wipe and see what did or didn't go correctly.

By and far alone per your admission ACCURACY is the largest variable here.

[Felis]

tl;dr: If the game's going to have DPS checks, then having a way to measure DPS makes sense. If they don't want DPS meters, then they should remove the DPS checks on bosses.

Official dps meters in specific locations to train your job is already planned

[Althea]

Official dps meters in specific locations to train your job is already planned

That mimics boss mechanics such as moving out of AOE, target switching, AOEing adds, etc? Because a static dummy isn't going to suffice. Your DPS is going to vary a huge amount when you throw in raid mechanics.

[MeiUshu]

still is no justification to monitor others, although I (I suck as a dps) know perfectly well when I do no damages and I slack of it. no need of parsers...any sensible person can see by themselves it doesnt require a parsers for it nor does it a monitoring and with that the lack of education that derives from it

Mei