Death Penalty

[Kallera]

you're kidding right? nothing more than a 3 minutes time out is not steep. this games death penalty is a joke.

If there was a word greater than "this", I would use that for this post.
The only reason I could see Not imposing a sp drop would be because it wouldn't have enough disincentive, with the many ways to level as it is. There NEEDS to be changes to it though. Maybe something similar to monster hunter, where the reward is impacted instead. And for NMs outside of leves, rage timers.

[Preypacer]

If players actually do the 'zombie' death thing in XIV, that's the players fault, not the game. They are taking the strategy and fun out of it at their own accord since they are too lazy to think about it. Players like that... I avoid teaming up with.

Players, by and large, are *always* going to gravitate toward the easiest/most convenient approach to anything. That's just human nature.

The problem is that the game doesn't punish it enough to discourage people from doing it, and so it's deemed a "viable tactic".

Because if dying repeatedly is perceived as an "easier and equally effective" way to defeat an encounter than developing and executing a strategy... people will go for the "easier" method. Dying repeatedly to defeat an encounter should never been seen as a viable strategy. Dying should never been seen as a viable form of anything in terms of playing the game.

It should be something that players absolutely want to avoid at all cost.

Yet, in more and more MMO's I play, the "death penalty" would be better labeled as "death convenience", since that's what it's being used as. It's a convenient means of transportation. It's an effective (but sloppy) way of completing content...

When people see a game's death penalty as more of a convenience than they do a penalty... there's something very wrong. I have to shake my head when people say "Oh, the death penalty sucks because I'm being punished for dying". Well... yeah! That's the point! Dying is supposed to suck! And it's supposed to suck enough to make you want to avoid it as much as possible! That's the point!

Dying is supposed to be the exception, not the rule. It always makes me wonder "how often do some of these people die?" when people talk about "losing hours and hours of progress from dying". I played FFXI for over 7 years. I died plenty of times in that period... but I can tell you I gained far, far, far more xp than I ever lost. I de-leveled exactly once. I had entire weeks go by where I played every day, but died maybe once during a bad group, or a freak bad encounter.

It just really rings to me as people basically saying "I don't want to play more carefully or strategically so I die less often. Instead, I want the devs to make dying less harsh so I'm not penalized as much when I do". It's the classic case of wanting the bar to be lowered rather than striving to reach it

In my own experience, when my requests to try actually defeating the encounters legitimately through tactics/coordination fell on deaf ears, I did try to find other groups who preferred that method. The result was I found it harder and harder to find groups since it seems more and more people started doing the "zombie zerg" approach...

I eventually just started doing them solo... and then lost interest in playing at all because, frankly, I find MMOs boring as hell when I'm playing solo most of the time.

By and large, many players will simply choose to follow the path of least resistance. As of now, the path of least resistance = zombie zerging encounters because aside from a mildly inconvenient 3 minute wait and a bit of a run back to your location, death has absolutely no sting.

[Seif]

If there was a word greater than "this", I would use that for this post.
The only reason I could see Not imposing a sp drop would be because it wouldn't have enough disincentive, with the many ways to level as it is. There NEEDS to be changes to it though. Maybe something similar to monster hunter, where the reward is impacted instead. And for NMs outside of leves, rage timers.

You make MH sound like facebook lol-game (that SE is desperately trying to emulate with XIV btw) to people who haven't played it.

Killing ONE monster in MH usually takes a good 40 to 50 minutes and sometimes you really need to hustle all the time to take down the enemy.

If you die too many times in MH (which you will) you won't get ANY drops from the enemy and the drops are the ONLY reward in MH that doesn't have xp or freebies. Also you lose 50 minutes of time from you and everyone else too so dying in MH is not only very meaningful it actually makes playing well a thing of pride.

It is absolutely SHAMEFUL to die during the online mode where you've just cut everyone's winnings and are probably going to fail the entire mission if you don't shape up.

When you have a full body Lagisaurus armor on it's not a sign of someone playing a long period of time it's a sign of a good player and getting that armor is incredibly rewarding.

People with lvl 50 armor in XIV just seem sad because you know what kind of play-history leads to that. It's not something to look up to.

[Kallera]

You make MH sound like facebook lol-game (that SE is desperately trying to emulate with XIV btw) to people who haven't played it.

Killing ONE monster in MH usually takes a good 40 to 50 minutes and sometimes you really need to hustle all the time to take down the enemy.

If you die too many times in MH (which you will) you won't get ANY drops from the enemy and the drops are the ONLY reward in MH that doesn't have xp or freebies. Also you lose 50 minutes of time from you and everyone else too so dying in MH is not only very meaningful it actually makes playing well a thing of pride.

It is absolutely SHAMEFUL to die during the online mode where you've just cut everyone's winnings and are probably going to fail the entire mission if you don't shape up.

When you have a full body Lagisaurus armor on it's not a sign of someone playing a long period of time it's a sign of a good player and getting that armor is incredibly rewarding.

People with lvl 50 armor in XIV just seem sad because you know what kind of play-history leads to that. It's not something to look up to.

Um, thank you for elaborating...? I would like this system.

[geniusprime]

The OP is either trolling, or really doesn't understand how games create a sense of danger. Danger = Penalties.

RTS game create danger by offering the ultimate penalty, Game Over.

MMOs have death penalties, in the form of weakness, and usually something more substantial like exp loss.

You can't honestly stand behind the argument that dying is a good enough penalty. That's nothing, no incentive to play better, or to think twice about engaging some crazy enemy. Death does not equal game over, one just re-spawns and continues on one's way.

I have a pretty good understanding of the sense of danger. DP doesn't achieve that, more of an inconvenience than a sense of dread.

As far as RTS the sense of danger is not from "the ultimate penalty, Game Over", the sense of danger is simply losing. And in case you aren't aware, you can reload from last save in a RTS which equates to respawning in other games.

And yes I can and am standing behind the argument that dying is a good enough penalty. The incentive to play better should not be the penalty of dying but simply rewarding the player for playing better by staying alive.

[geniusprime]

I fully agree with your sentiment.

[Randis]

Death in FFXIV:

Oh, i died. Brb gonna make a tea.

[geniusprime]

And that, I believe, is where you're fundamentally wrong. SE is actually about to remove the already-low 1 Anima cost for Returning to your last crystal exactly because so many people were suicide-porting. So, yes, that is actually a reward, or, at the very least, not a penalty.

It is a penalty if it is NOT my intentions to die. Folks using death in this manner is clearly showing that traveling is flawed.

[geniusprime]

Death in FFXIV:

Oh, i died. Brb gonna make a tea.

Which is exactly how it plays out. Except I browse the net.

[Reinheart]

Steep???? FFXIV Death Penalty Steep????? Is this your first MMO??? This is NOTHING compared to older MMO's