Parsers

[Moriganna]

Perhaps I should have phrased that better, when I say I don't get to play much I mean I don't get to play much now, I will admit I have the experiance, but you have hit the nail on the head about why I am angry about it, I have no problems with constructive criticism, in fact I welcome it, but when people just say "you suck" then yeah they are scum.

Problem is you DO suck. So improve yourself and get over it.

[Maelwys]

I never said running a parser in itself was bullying. But in CT and primals I have seen many people bully and harass because someone was parsing low.

Yes, you can be bullied over the internet. Just because it's not face to face doesn't mean anything.

Actually they're substantially less personal (it largely doesn't matter to the instigator who their target is) but it happens a lot more (due to the anonymity and lack of any social repurcussions). This takes many forms - one is forum flaming, another is in-game trolling/harrassment. And finally, some people just LOVE to fling verbal poop at anyone they consider "an opponent" - trash talk in online PVP games is the ultimate culmination of this.

All this is (I'm serious) known as the Greater Internet F**kwad Theory.
And a classic example of it is the post right above this one.

Link to original source (I'm not posting a direct image, since language used is NSFW)

[Clavaat]

Bosses are bullies for firing you? Schools are bullies for failing you? Bar association for not making you a lawyer because you failed the exam?

So video games are comparable to work or school? Not, you know, a way to get away from all of those things. Everyone has to deal with the stuff you listed every day. Why drag that crap and bad attitude into a game? But no, it would be too mature to think that way. As a matter of fact, using your comparison, does a boss who calmly and professionally explains problems and alterations that need to be made achieve more success than those who don't? What about professors who try to help you and take the time to sit down with you to learn as opposed to just saying "loln00bl2quantumphysics" after looking at your scores?

And come on people, "growing thicker skin"? I thought we were beyond that irrational thinking by now.

[ispano]

And come on people, "growing thicker skin"? I thought we were beyond that irrational thinking by now.

It's not irrational. It's because you're NOT going to change abusive people. They will never go away, at least not in our life time.

[L-D-Omlette]

Snip

The difference is, for all of those things there is a contract (implicit or explicit) and the person is aware of the forthcoming judgement. That doesn't exist in this game, unless you've explicitly defined the parameters. It is not one players responsibility to determine the performance of another, especially in a pug. I think we can all agree we would rather see the community improve, but there is a right way and a wrong way to go about it. Negative reinforcement doesn't work.

I agree bullying might be a little over the top in this scenario, but don't think it can't happen in similar situations.

[Cailae]

So video games are comparable to work or school? Not, you know, a way to get away from all of those things. Everyone has to deal with the stuff you listed every day. Why drag that crap and bad attitude into a game? But no, it would be too mature to think that way. As a matter of fact, using your comparison, does a boss who calmly and professionally explains problems and alterations that need to be made achieve more success than those who don't? What about professors who try to help you and take the time to sit down with you to learn as opposed to just saying "loln00bl2quantumphysics" after looking at your scores?

And come on people, "growing thicker skin"? I thought we were beyond that irrational thinking by now.

I am pointing out the absurdity of people looking at hard data, finding you lacking, and being called a bully for following through with the next step. We are assuming we are already at the "failed at" point in the relationship. You are also correct in that this is a game. I am not your teacher, I am not your boss, and likely I do not know you on any personal level. Thus you are measured where it is most important. You show up as DPS, you fail to perform DPS, you need to go. This is no different than a Tank that can't hold hate, or a Healer that lets everyone die. Take it for what it is, and improve for next time.

The difference is, for all of those things there is a contract (implicit or explicit) and the person is aware of the forthcoming judgement. That doesn't exist in this game, unless you've explicitly defined the parameters. It is not one players responsibility to determine the performance of another, especially in a pug. I think we can all agree we would rather see the community improve, but there is a right way and a wrong way to go about it. Negative reinforcement doesn't work.

I agree bullying might be a little over the top in this scenario, but don't think it can't happen in similar situations.

I guess I am assuming things like party finder. I don't use the Duty finder for... well anything. If I do Duty finder something I know I am rolling the dice on everyone I end up with. In that instance the onus is on me. But I see people all the time lose their minds that they were kicked from a PF party that explicitly says not a learning party when they clearly do not know the fight. Parameters were defined, you did not fall within them. No need to get upset over it.

[Kayo]

So video games are comparable to work or school? Not, you know, a way to get away from all of those things. Everyone has to deal with the stuff you listed every day. Why drag that crap and bad attitude into a game? But no, it would be too mature to think that way. As a matter of fact, using your comparison, does a boss who calmly and professionally explains problems and alterations that need to be made achieve more success than those who don't? What about professors who try to help you and take the time to sit down with you to learn as opposed to just saying "loln00bl2quantumphysics" after looking at your scores?

This. Even those that decide not to help dont call anyone out in front of everyone to insult or rage at before letting them go. Nor do they go into a temper tantrum for getting an answer wrong, specially from someone new. Well ok ... some do, but they generally get labeled much the same as the angry little pricks we get in game. Its a pretty simple concept people. I mean how low must ones IQ be where the differences between yelling angry insults and common decency eludes them?

"Well, you could be nicer about it."
"... huh, what? But you were bad, Me lose 1 minute of play. I have say you!!!!"

[Clavaat]

We are assuming we are already at the "failed at" point in the relationship. You are also correct in that this is a game. I am not your teacher, I am not your boss, and likely I do not know you on any personal level. Thus you are measured where it is most important.

Here is where we will disagree. Community building is a responsibility we all take on whether we want to or not. The reason for this is because oftentimes, how we interact with the community determines our experience, positively or negatively. Instead of sending people away for failing, make them a better player.

In other words, "what is most important" is the interaction with the other player, not the success or failure of the group. This will create a longer lasting experience for everyone involved, because they don't feel like they have to do better in order to enjoy content, but want to do better to achieve something difficult. This doesn't pertain to everyone, I understand that, but I know if I were treated one way as opposed to the other, I would do better.

[Gamemako]

Instead of "Man my DPS was terrible, maybe I should improve and try again later" it's "BAN THAT GUY FOR MEASURING MY PERFORMANCE!"

Again, OP has stated that he didn't care about the parsing and just used it as an angle to crucify someone for calling him out. This thread is not "Parsers contribute to an elitist and toxic gaming environment and should be forbidden;" this thread is "Parsers let me get people I don't like banned and should be forbidden just in case I have the opportunity to get somebody with them!"

Yoshi has already pretty well explained why parsers have been left in that grey area. Parsing isn't cheating, but he doesn't want players butting heads over "must do XXX DPS or kick." Yet somehow, OP has taken the third way, where the law exists only for his own amusement and not for the benefit of the community at large. That's what so damn disgusting about this thread. This instance is hardly some egregious abuse. "DPS is too low" is not an uncommon problem in fights, and it isn't going to take long before everyone points out the obvious weak link, parser or no. It happens with tanks and healers, too, even where they aren't parsed: people will call out tanks for taking too much damage due to not rotating cooldowns properly (or at all), and healers get knocked for not healing properly at critical periods like mountain buster, double WW, or death sentence.

The difference is, for all of those things there is a contract (implicit or explicit) and the person is aware of the forthcoming judgement.

Actually, we are very well aware of the judgment. It is frequently accompanied by "Tremble before the might of the earth!" or similar exclamation.

//EDIT:

Instead of sending people away for failing, make them a better player. In other words, "what is most important" is the interaction with the other player, not the success or failure of the group.

I don't think that's necessarily the point. I do agree that people should put more effort into improving the play of others and am not fond of the "must know fight" stuff, but evaluation has to be a part of that. The point of the MMO is not only interaction and not only progression; it is both.

[Synapse]

It's not irrational. It's because you're NOT going to change abusive people. They will never go away, at least not in our life time.

Well, it is not irrational to stand up against abusive people, ignoring them will not make it go away either.

my "friend" owns a parser, which he uses for himself, and if when notices any low dps, for example, a bard in gaurda fight.. reason, yhe brd did not have his DoTs up constantly.

my "friend" said it pt chat, "I don't see all the Dots i should see on Garuda" in general. Who knows who else it would have helped. The brd kept his rotation the next fight.

There r many ways to solve a problem without ignoring of course.