Parsers

[Clavaat]

Bosses are bullies for firing you? Schools are bullies for failing you? Bar association for not making you a lawyer because you failed the exam?

So video games are comparable to work or school? Not, you know, a way to get away from all of those things. Everyone has to deal with the stuff you listed every day. Why drag that crap and bad attitude into a game? But no, it would be too mature to think that way. As a matter of fact, using your comparison, does a boss who calmly and professionally explains problems and alterations that need to be made achieve more success than those who don't? What about professors who try to help you and take the time to sit down with you to learn as opposed to just saying "loln00bl2quantumphysics" after looking at your scores?

And come on people, "growing thicker skin"? I thought we were beyond that irrational thinking by now.

[ispano]

And come on people, "growing thicker skin"? I thought we were beyond that irrational thinking by now.

It's not irrational. It's because you're NOT going to change abusive people. They will never go away, at least not in our life time.

[Synapse]

It's not irrational. It's because you're NOT going to change abusive people. They will never go away, at least not in our life time.

Well, it is not irrational to stand up against abusive people, ignoring them will not make it go away either.

my "friend" owns a parser, which he uses for himself, and if when notices any low dps, for example, a bard in gaurda fight.. reason, yhe brd did not have his DoTs up constantly.

my "friend" said it pt chat, "I don't see all the Dots i should see on Garuda" in general. Who knows who else it would have helped. The brd kept his rotation the next fight.

There r many ways to solve a problem without ignoring of course.

[Delsus]

Well, it is not irrational to stand up against abusive people, ignoring them will not make it go away either.

my "friend" owns a parser, which he uses for himself, and if when notices any low dps, for example, a bard in gaurda fight.. reason, yhe brd did not have his DoTs up constantly.

my "friend" said it pt chat, "I don't see all the Dots i should see on Garuda" in general. Who knows who else it would have helped. The brd kept his rotation the next fight.

There r many ways to solve a problem without ignoring of course.

Now that is how criticism should be, offering specific advice to help the party, that is the kind of comment I would respond to positively in a fight.

Again, OP has stated that he didn't care about the parsing and just used it as an angle to crucify someone for calling him out. This thread is not "Parsers contribute to an elitist and toxic gaming environment and should be forbidden;" this thread is "Parsers let me get people I don't like banned and should be forbidden just in case I have the opportunity to get somebody with them!"

Yoshi has already pretty well explained why parsers have been left in that grey area. Parsing isn't cheating, but he doesn't want players butting heads over "must do XXX DPS or kick." Yet somehow, OP has taken the third way, where the law exists only for his own amusement and not for the benefit of the community at large. That's what so damn disgusting about this thread. This instance is hardly some egregious abuse. "DPS is too low" is not an uncommon problem in fights, and it isn't going to take long before everyone points out the obvious weak link, parser or no. It happens with tanks and healers, too, even where they aren't parsed: people will call out tanks for taking too much damage due to not rotating cooldowns properly (or at all), and healers get knocked for not healing properly at critical periods like mountain buster, double WW, or death sentence.

You completely missed the point of this thread, and that is the statement that parsers ARE being used for the purpose of harassing players, now if this continues SE could block the use of parsers (use strong encryption on the chat logs) over night, or with more work detect when a program other than the client is accessing them. Now (And I will state this for at least the 5th time but no one seems to read it) By all means tell me my damage isn't up to par, but a comment like "Are you trolling" offers no help, no advice it offers nothing to the community other than to make people feel bad.

Constructive criticism is "Delsus your damage isn't up to par with your gear, the BRD is doing much more, are you sure your rotations are right" at which point I could reply (as an example) "well my DoTs and heavy thrust are need to be done at the right position, which will be lowering damage, when they are moving around. Also when they are moving around a lot I have to chase them, whereas BRDs don't, but I'll see what I can do" But "Delsus are you trolling, you did xxk damage" offers nothing It would be akin to (specifically prior to the nerf) in Sunken Temple of Quarn parties dying to Mortal Ray "Guys you are all dying stop sucking" rather than "Guys you need to run to the playforms to remove doom asap" very similar comments one offers advice, and the other serves only to put people down.

This thread is a more a lesson, it only takes a few people using parsers to harass people to make them taboo, and potentially a very serious violation, It wouldn't take much work at all to prevent their use completely, or to make workaround too much work to bother with.

[Shirai]

Now that is how criticism should be, offering specific advice to help the party, that is the kind of comment I would respond to positively in a fight.

Yet, I still refrain from doing so.
Simply because there are too many people out there that see even that as being insulted.

[Delsus]

Yet, I still refrain from doing so.
Simply because there are too many people out there that see even that as being insulted.

Many times in DF I have helped people, in Quarn "Guys you need to kill the bees ASAP, tank can't take 2x final sting" (before the nerf) organising positioning on Garuda when we wipe to 3x AoEs, I see a missing Shield Oath on the tank, I mention it and there's no issues. It's about saying it in a polite manner, by all means say someone sucks, just don't make it sound like you are trying to intentionally hurt them.

[Cailae]

So video games are comparable to work or school? Not, you know, a way to get away from all of those things. Everyone has to deal with the stuff you listed every day. Why drag that crap and bad attitude into a game? But no, it would be too mature to think that way. As a matter of fact, using your comparison, does a boss who calmly and professionally explains problems and alterations that need to be made achieve more success than those who don't? What about professors who try to help you and take the time to sit down with you to learn as opposed to just saying "loln00bl2quantumphysics" after looking at your scores?

And come on people, "growing thicker skin"? I thought we were beyond that irrational thinking by now.

I am pointing out the absurdity of people looking at hard data, finding you lacking, and being called a bully for following through with the next step. We are assuming we are already at the "failed at" point in the relationship. You are also correct in that this is a game. I am not your teacher, I am not your boss, and likely I do not know you on any personal level. Thus you are measured where it is most important. You show up as DPS, you fail to perform DPS, you need to go. This is no different than a Tank that can't hold hate, or a Healer that lets everyone die. Take it for what it is, and improve for next time.

The difference is, for all of those things there is a contract (implicit or explicit) and the person is aware of the forthcoming judgement. That doesn't exist in this game, unless you've explicitly defined the parameters. It is not one players responsibility to determine the performance of another, especially in a pug. I think we can all agree we would rather see the community improve, but there is a right way and a wrong way to go about it. Negative reinforcement doesn't work.

I agree bullying might be a little over the top in this scenario, but don't think it can't happen in similar situations.

I guess I am assuming things like party finder. I don't use the Duty finder for... well anything. If I do Duty finder something I know I am rolling the dice on everyone I end up with. In that instance the onus is on me. But I see people all the time lose their minds that they were kicked from a PF party that explicitly says not a learning party when they clearly do not know the fight. Parameters were defined, you did not fall within them. No need to get upset over it.

[Clavaat]

We are assuming we are already at the "failed at" point in the relationship. You are also correct in that this is a game. I am not your teacher, I am not your boss, and likely I do not know you on any personal level. Thus you are measured where it is most important.

Here is where we will disagree. Community building is a responsibility we all take on whether we want to or not. The reason for this is because oftentimes, how we interact with the community determines our experience, positively or negatively. Instead of sending people away for failing, make them a better player.

In other words, "what is most important" is the interaction with the other player, not the success or failure of the group. This will create a longer lasting experience for everyone involved, because they don't feel like they have to do better in order to enjoy content, but want to do better to achieve something difficult. This doesn't pertain to everyone, I understand that, but I know if I were treated one way as opposed to the other, I would do better.

[Cailae]

Here is where we will disagree. Community building is a responsibility we all take on whether we want to or not. The reason for this is because oftentimes, how we interact with the community determines our experience, positively or negatively. Instead of sending people away for failing, make them a better player.

In other words, "what is most important" is the interaction with the other player, not the success or failure of the group. This will create a longer lasting experience for everyone involved, because they don't feel like they have to do better in order to enjoy content, but want to do better to achieve something difficult. This doesn't pertain to everyone, I understand that, but I know if I were treated one way as opposed to the other, I would do better.

Unfortunately this is where you hit the problem of divergent goals. when you have thousands of people sharing a space you will often find that divergent goals cause the most friction. If my goal is only to clear content, and your goal is to goof around and have fun, neither of us are wrong. But, when put together, things can get messy. I often also do not have time to hold someones hand and make them better. When I DO have that time, I tend to spend it with my FC helping them be better players. I also don't jump into a PF party that says "Learning party!" and rage out that they don't win on the first few tries (if at all). I knew what I signed up for. This is why I don't understand people raging out when they don't hold up their end in other situations.

[Kayo]

So video games are comparable to work or school? Not, you know, a way to get away from all of those things. Everyone has to deal with the stuff you listed every day. Why drag that crap and bad attitude into a game? But no, it would be too mature to think that way. As a matter of fact, using your comparison, does a boss who calmly and professionally explains problems and alterations that need to be made achieve more success than those who don't? What about professors who try to help you and take the time to sit down with you to learn as opposed to just saying "loln00bl2quantumphysics" after looking at your scores?

This. Even those that decide not to help dont call anyone out in front of everyone to insult or rage at before letting them go. Nor do they go into a temper tantrum for getting an answer wrong, specially from someone new. Well ok ... some do, but they generally get labeled much the same as the angry little pricks we get in game. Its a pretty simple concept people. I mean how low must ones IQ be where the differences between yelling angry insults and common decency eludes them?

"Well, you could be nicer about it."
"... huh, what? But you were bad, Me lose 1 minute of play. I have say you!!!!"