(Un)Official Arcanist/Summmoner Feedback Thread

[xxalucard]

Is this a joke? The target limitation is there so that we aren't the top DPS ST, the absolute kings/queens of 2-4 targets, and top DPS AoE.

We can't be perfect everywhere, and we aren't as far behind on 5+ targets as you think.

Still don't see how this would be unbalanced. 5 yalms is an incredibly small radius and we have to use a stack of aetherflow for it (not to mention it has its own cd), and the main purpose of it is to spread our dots to a group of trash mobs-- whether it's just trash or a boss's adds.

How would it make us king when BLM can still double flare in the time it would take to set-up our dots and bane once? They also have access to infinite mana at the penalty of a much shorter downtime, while we have to wait an entire minute for aetherflow just to refresh our stacks & get ~800 mp back. There's literally no penalty to using flare besides ~10 seconds of downtime (not counting that they can just convert / use a potion / transpose & swiftcast bliz 3, etc, to have even less downtime).

I'm not saying BLM will always do more DPS than summoner, but it's really stupid to make a summoner have skills that are designed for AoE yet are limited to only 3 other targets-- especially in a DoT form of a damage, compared to the BLM's near-instant burst that requires no setup time and only a few seconds of down time if they have to transpose. We already are limited to a 5-yalm radius that it can spread from in the first place, what is so wrong with letting it spread to everything in that small-ass radius? A BLM's fire 2 & flare can do it but bane can't? Where's the logic there?

And Shadow flare doesn't even come close to compare-- you have to make sure the mobs STAY in the circle AND it doesn't deal any kind of "burst" damage whatsoever. If anything it's an extra slow utility along with an additional DoT. With flare or fire 2, you just target whats in the center and bam you automatically get the easy-mode "hit everything around it within 5 yalms" burst for little to no penalty.

I thought blm was supposed to have the advantage on single target dps? now it's aoe too? (i had always thought bane was just bugged initially)

So summoner can't be king of everything, but BLM can?

Right, that makes sense.

[Kevee]

Still don't see how this would be unbalanced. 5 yalms is an incredibly small radius and we have to use a stack of aetherflow for it (not to mention it has its own cd), and the main purpose of it is to spread our dots to a group of trash mobs-- whether it's just trash or a boss's adds.

5 yalms isn't small enough that it won't spread to what you need to spread it to.

How would it make us king when BLM can still double flare in the time it would take to set-up our dots and bane once? They also have access to infinite mana at the penalty of a much shorter downtime, while we have to wait an entire minute for aetherflow just to refresh our stacks & get ~800 mp back. There's literally no penalty to using flare besides ~10 seconds of downtime (not counting that they can just convert / use a potion / transpose & swiftcast bliz 3, etc, to have even less downtime).

Because double flare isn't functionally relevant and uses two CDs? It's a gimmick specifically assosciated with big trash pulls.
Swiftcast bliz 3? What? You do know Flare has a 4 second cast, right? It sounds, to me, like you've never even learned how other classes play, or function. If you swiftcast Bliz 3, you have no Swiftcast for Flare and spent 8 seconds casting it twice. I mean, wat?

Oh, you Flare->Convert->Swiftcast+Flare->transpose+Pot? Well, first, you're only in UI1 right now. Second, you have to cast Bliz3 before you even get UI3, and that means it could take up to 6 seconds before you get enough MP back to go back to AF. Third, that's at least 6.5s~ or so. Not 4. Not "near-instant." Oh, you did Fire III -> Fire II until low, then this? Okay. Convert is a 3 minute CD. Let me pop Raging Strikes on the next pack and still not be as far behind as you think we are, or how about Rouse+Spur+Enkindle+Pet AoE as well? Which, you know, hits pretty hard. Enkindle is 900-1000 non-crit. Pet AoE will be ~500. Rouse is 60 seconds, Spur is 120. Yes, SMN is behind BLM on 5+ targets. It's not as far behind as you think it is. If Bane hit every target, SMN would be the king/queen of everything.

And, the thing is, as a SMN we just continue doing what we do. BLM has a cycle of low/high.

I'm not saying BLM will always do more DPS than summoner, but it's really stupid to make a summoner have skills that are designed for AoE yet are limited to only 3 other targets-- especially in a DoT form of a damage, compared to the BLM's near-instant burst that requires no setup time and only a few seconds of down time if they have to transpose. We already are limited to a 5-yalm radius that it can spread from in the first place, what is so wrong with letting it spread to everything in that small-ass radius? A BLM's fire 2 & flare can do it but bane can't? Where's the logic there?

It's not stupid. We would be the quintessential kings/queens of everything. It's not near-instant. It's not a few seconds of downtime.

The logic is that we would be as far ahead for 5+ targets as we are 2-4. In fact, we would be FURTHER ahead because we would be using Tri-Disaster instead of Ruin.

And Shadow flare doesn't even come close to compare-- you have to make sure the mobs STAY in the circle AND it doesn't deal any kind of "burst" damage whatsoever. If anything it's an extra slow utility along with an additional DoT. With flare or fire 2, you just target whats in the center and bam you automatically get the easy-mode "hit everything around it within 5 yalms" burst for little to no penalty.

Okay, and when are the mobs not going to stay in the huge circle?

I thought blm was supposed to have the advantage on single target dps? now it's aoe too? (i had always thought bane was just bugged initially)

So summoner can't be king of everything, but BLM can?

Right, that makes sense.

BLM isn't the king/queen of everything.

[xxalucard]

5 yalms isn't small enough that it won't spread to what you need to spread it to.

Because double flare isn't functionally relevant and uses two CDs? It's a gimmick specifically assosciated with big trash pulls.
Swiftcast bliz 3? What? You do know Flare has a 4 second cast, right? It sounds, to me, like you've never even learned how other classes play, or function.

Actually, I have. I have a 50 BLM with relic and I know that when you transpose after 1 flare (because you can't always convert or use an MP potion, I don't know if you're aware of this...) the MP gain is slow and trying to normally cast bliz 3 is slower since you're in umbral ice. Sometimes there might be a situation you want to kill the adds and then quickly focus the boss-- the adds don't always start stacked together in a 5 yalm radius, so you may opt not to swiftcast the flare. Or maybe you have to move sooner than you think after you transpose.

It was just a random example of how you could lower the downtime after flare.

And, the thing is, as a SMN we just continue doing what we do. BLM has a cycle of low/high.

I think you mean high/high

It's not stupid. We would be the quintessential kings of everything. It's not near-instant. It's not a few seconds of downtime.

The logic is that we would be as far ahead for 5+ targets as we are 2-4. In fact, we would be FURTHER ahead because we would be using Tri-Disaster instead of Ruin.

Not sure what you're talking about here because fire 2 spam + flare will already beat any possible combo we use on 2-4 targets (especially if there's more), and in a shorter time frame. Explain maybe?

Okay, and when are the mobs not going to stay in the huge circle?

Easy, whenever one of the 5+ enemies gets hit by one or two aoes. The tank can't hold hate on everything in a large group very easily or very quickly, and often I have to literally run in the middle of my own shadow flare because I know that the second I bane those aggro lines are going to change to me. And many times I play with a BLM or a bard there is pretty much a guarantee that a few of the targets will run out of the circle.

Or, sometimes the tank simply has to move out of the circle because he has to avoid getting hit by something. Or a situation changes where he has to grab a certain target for some reason. Unless your DPS sucks horribly you will be used to the mobs running out of shadow flare the second you hit bane / thunder on a bunch of things. OH, almost forgot the countless times the healer happens to pull aggro on at least some them (it's hard to keep a tank alive in a large group without healing him, you see).

I can think of more situations if you like.

BLM isn't the king of everything.

I agree, but right now they are easily beating us in every form of AoE DPS-- which I thought was supposed to be summoner's specialty.

[Kevee]

Actually, I have. I have a 50 BLM with relic and I know that when you transpose after 1 flare (because you can't always convert or use an MP potion, I don't know if you're aware of this...) the MP gain is slow and trying to normally cast bliz 3 is slower since you're in umbral ice. Sometimes there might be a situation you want to kill the adds and then quickly focus the boss-- the adds don't always start stacked together in a 5 yalm radius, so you may opt not to swiftcast the flare. Or maybe you have to move sooner than you think after you transpose.

Having a class at 50 with a relic means nothing.

I don't know if you're aware of this, but if you don't have Convert/MP potion, you shouldn't be using Flare.

Such as? Don't list hypothetical situations. If they're not in a 5-yalm radius, you most likely can't AoE them either.

It was just a random example of how you could lower the downtime after flare.

Lowering the downtime means nothing when you spent 4 seconds casting it.

I think you mean high/high

No. BLM has a period of high DPS(AF), and a period of low DPS(UI). UI is shorter than AF, so it's not quite even, but you are most certainly not doing anywhere near AF damage in UI.

Not sure what you're talking about here because fire 2 spam + flare will already beat any possible combo we use on 2-4 targets (especially if there's more), and in a shorter time frame. Explain maybe?

Uh, no? 3 DoTs is 105 Pot + Shadow Flare(37.5), by themselves, is almost equal to what you can do. Then you use Miasma II(20 up front) and 10 DoT and we're equal. Then, while all of our DoTs are going, we're using Thunder/Ruin/Tri-Disaster to make us go even higher. I would say we're higher at Miasma II, but the application time for the DoTs makes up for BLM needing to use Fire III/Blizzard III.

And then you include the pet.

This is only an AoE scenario, too.

Turn 1 no one can match SMN, at all, period. 2 Spread out targets? Okay, let me DoT them both.

Easy, whenever one of the 5+ enemies gets hit by one or two aoes. The tank can't hold hate on everything in a large group very easily or very quickly, and often I have to literally run in the middle of my own shadow flare because I know that the second I bane those aggro lines are going to change to me. And many times I play with a BLM or a bard there is pretty much a guarantee that a few of the targets will run out of the circle.

Easy? What?

First, yes the tank can.

Second, why aren't you in melee anyways?

If everyone is competent then they will stay in the BRD/SMN circles.

Or, sometimes the tank simply has to move out of the circle because he has to avoid getting hit by something. Or a situation changes where he has to grab a certain target for some reason. Unless your DPS sucks horribly you will be used to the mobs running out of shadow flare the second you hit bane / thunder on a bunch of things. OH, almost forgot the countless times the healer happens to pull aggro on at least some them (it's hard to keep a tank alive in a large group without healing him, you see).

I can think of more situations if you like.

Avoid getting hit..by what? Grab a certain target..for what reason?
They won't be running out because I stand in melee. You know, you kind of have ot for Miasma II, not to mention mobs running all over the place is bad for everyone.

It's not hard. Healer won't pull aggro if the tank knows what he's doing, and healer will be in melee anyways for holy(WHM) or Miasma II(SCH). Not to mention healers will have an easier time due to the slow on Shadow Flare, and Disease from Miasma II.

Stop "thinking" of things and post real-world scenarios. "B-B-But Kevee! If I queue in the DF, these things happen!"

Yes, that's what happens when you go in an un-coordinated pug with no gear standard.

Good thing 8-~13 minute WP speed runs don't happen in pugs, right?

I agree, but right now they are easily beating us in every form of AoE DPS-- which I thought was supposed to be summoner's specialty.

lolno