Please fix marauder

[Peregrine]

You can't invent new wheels. The MMO genre has already tapped out how many unique roles actually can fit into games before players start stepping on each others' toes. If you design marauder to be a better tank, gladiator becomes pointless. If you make gladiator a better damager, marauder becomes pointless. You can not solve that problem, so you shouldn't even try. This problem has been in this genre for 15 years. It's permanent. Marauder will not work as a tank. Gladiator will not work as a DD. Otherwise, they render the other job useless.

Lancer is the only meleer who has a shot at being great. It can be the new corsair. The damaging party enhancer that CANNOT be made up for by simply kicking them and adding an archer.

Hate controller was a viable role in FFXI, but it was POORLY designed. If they want to make pugilist a hate controller, that'd be worth a 2nd try, but even that is dangerous. Make hate controlling annoying to people, and they will HATE the job that does it and invent ways to not need it on purpose. That's what happened to thief.

Each job MUST be more useful to a party than kicking them and adding an archer. In reality. Not "I can crowd control" no, you don't crowd control. Not "I can tank" no, you don't tank.

People do not understand the concept that any advantage your job MAY have is not an advantage if it is NOT DOING IT, so if you are in any way paying for that advantage that you aren't doing by being less good at what you are doing at the moment...you're a gimp. Marauder is that gimp. It pays for being able to tank even when it's not tanking, by having lower DD output than it should, which it is currently and usually always is doing.

A marauder can claim it can tank all it wants. Gladiators will do that job, so no one cares. Marauders can claim they can AoE, but mages will do that job, so no one cares. Marauders can claim they can DD, but archers will do that job, so no one cares.

Same reason that a job's weakness is not a weakness if it DOESN'T HAPPEN. Archers aren't defensively weak. Parties are set up so that they don't take any damage. Dead enemies stop attacking.

Marauder can't win as this pseudotank pseudo DD. It's bad at both so....just whatever the marauder THINKS he's doing just get the person better than he is at whatever that is. If damage, archer. If tank, Gladiator. If AOE, mage.

As expected when you concentrate peolple who think theyr'e "experts," on the internet, the marauder's board has more cluelessness about the job than the general discussion board does. It's unfortunate that this topic was moved.

[Duelle]

You can't invent new wheels. The MMO genre has already tapped out how many unique roles actually can fit into games before players start stepping on each others' toes. If you design marauder to be a better tank, gladiator becomes pointless. If you make gladiator a better damager, marauder becomes pointless. You can not solve that problem, so you shouldn't even try. This problem has been in this genre for 15 years. It's permanent. Marauder will not work as a tank. Gladiator will not work as a DD. Otherwise, they render the other job useless.

False, otherwise modern game design would not aim to have more than one viable choice for a tank, healer or damage dealer. Or are you somehow suggesting games like Rift, WoW, CoH and their ilk, which have multiple different classes within their systems than can tank, heal and deal damage, have somehow failed?

Again, why can it work in one (or in this case several) game(s) and not in the other?

[Physic]

You can't invent new wheels. The MMO genre has already tapped out how many unique roles actually can fit into games before players start stepping on each others' toes. If you design marauder to be a better tank, gladiator becomes pointless. If you make gladiator a better damager, marauder becomes pointless. You can not solve that problem, so you shouldn't even try. This problem has been in this genre for 15 years. It's permanent. Marauder will not work as a tank. Gladiator will not work as a DD. Otherwise, they render the other job useless.

Lancer is the only meleer who has a shot at being great. It can be the new corsair. The damaging party enhancer that CANNOT be made up for by simply kicking them and adding an archer.

Hate controller was a viable role in FFXI, but it was POORLY designed. If they want to make pugilist a hate controller, that'd be worth a 2nd try, but even that is dangerous. Make hate controlling annoying to people, and they will HATE the job that does it and invent ways to not need it on purpose. That's what happened to thief.

Each job MUST be more useful to a party than kicking them and adding an archer. In reality. Not "I can crowd control" no, you don't crowd control. Not "I can tank" no, you don't tank.

People do not understand the concept that any advantage your job MAY have is not an advantage if it is NOT DOING IT, so if you are in any way paying for that advantage that you aren't doing by being less good at what you are doing at the moment...you're a gimp. Marauder is that gimp. It pays for being able to tank even when it's not tanking, by having lower DD output than it should, which it is currently and usually always is doing.

A marauder can claim it can tank all it wants. Gladiators will do that job, so no one cares. Marauders can claim they can AoE, but mages will do that job, so no one cares. Marauders can claim they can DD, but archers will do that job, so no one cares.

Same reason that a job's weakness is not a weakness if it DOESN'T HAPPEN. Archers aren't defensively weak. Parties are set up so that they don't take any damage. Dead enemies stop attacking.

Marauder can't win as this pseudotank pseudo DD. It's bad at both so....just whatever the marauder THINKS he's doing just get the person better than he is at whatever that is. If damage, archer. If tank, Gladiator. If AOE, mage.

MMOs havent been around long enough to come up with only one solutions. Guild wars 2 for example claim they have succesfully killed the trinity. i dont think its always going to come down to pure tanks and DDs, heck it didnt even come down to that in ffxi. people started realizing that monk could tank, warriors were pretty good. pld was the best at straight damage reduction, but that wasnt always the easiest answer.
I seen rdm tanks, monk tanks, theives, no one tanking.

[Peregrine]

False, otherwise modern game design would not aim to have more than one viable choice for a tank, healer or damage dealer. Or are you somehow suggesting games like Rift, WoW, CoH and their ilk, which have multiple different classes within their systems than can tank, heal and deal damage, have somehow failed?

Again, why can it work in one (or in this case several) game(s) and not in the other?

Do you want a sandbox game or do you want specialized roles? The game's major criticism is the sanboxy feel to the jobs, their generic utilities, and that there's really no specific point in plaing any of them. And that is being fixed to bring it more in line with being a Final Fantasy.

This isn't an "everyone can tank in their own special way if they wish" kind of series.

[Peregrine]

MMOs havent been around long enough to come up with only one solutions. Guild wars 2 for example claim they have succesfully killed the trinity. i dont think its always going to come down to pure tanks and DDs, heck it didnt even come down to that in ffxi. people started realizing that monk could tank, warriors were pretty good. pld was the best at straight damage reduction, but that wasnt always the easiest answer.
I seen rdm tanks, monk tanks, theives, no one tanking.

They didn't realize it. The developers slackened their design to accomodate the lack of tanks around, and that tanks were FFXI's prima donnas. They slackened it to the point where gladiator became nothing but the token endgame tool, and that was fine because endgame had more than enough of them by then.

It wasn't due to some new amazing discovery of the untapped potential of warrior. The devs specifically enabled alternative tanking for that game because it just didn't matter any more.

You can't do that to this game within a year of its inception--just resort to who the hell cares any more mode.

[Duelle]

Do you want a sandbox game or do you want specialized roles? The game's major criticism is the sanboxy feel to the jobs, their generic utilities, and that there's really no specific point in plaing any of them. And that is being fixed to bring it more in line with being a Final Fantasy.

This isn't an "everyone can tank in their own special way if they wish" kind of series.

And that's why class design went down the toilet for the most part in XI. So you're therefore saying it's alright for that mess to repeat itself.

PS: "specs" and diverse roles per class/job are not sandboxy. Quite far from it, actually.

[Physic]

They didn't realize it. The developers slackened their design to accomodate the lack of tanks around, and that tanks were FFXI's prima donnas. They slackened it to the point where gladiator became nothing but the token endgame tool, and that was fine because endgame had more than enough of them by then.

It wasn't due to some new amazing discovery of the untapped potential of warrior. The devs specifically enabled alternative tanking for that game because it just didn't matter any more.

You can't do that to this game within a year of its inception--just resort to who the hell cares any more mode.

im talking before they went past 75, and it wasnt so much who the hell cares, as much as people stopped following one formula, and started learning how to work the system their selves, monk always had high evasion, and counter always came before shadow use, as well as monk having the most haste gear these tools were always there, people were just too scared to try to tank, or try to tank without using voke. Rdm always had potential with massive amounts of mp, excellent defensive skills etc. Its just when people get experienced in a game they start really understanding the jobs instead of following blueprints telling them exactly how to play, and who is supposed to do what. Also at the end of the day, winning is winning, you can use whatever technique you want, as long as you can win

[Hikozaemon]

False, otherwise modern game design would not aim to have more than one viable choice for a tank, healer or damage dealer. Or are you somehow suggesting games like Rift, WoW, CoH and their ilk, which have multiple different classes within their systems than can tank, heal and deal damage, have somehow failed?

Again, why can it work in one (or in this case several) game(s) and not in the other?

Rift fails at being called a game period it almost has more lackluster visuals than WOW. it looks like it was developed for the 3DO its so poorly artistically designed..... how do i know this?lol Because i tried the free 7 day trail and it was all i could do not to laugh so hard at the sorry excuse of a game. I played for 5mins then uninstalled it; thank god.

And a very good PLD in ff11 still is the best tank in alot of situations and w/ the new content outside of abyssea mnk and war will not be able to tank as easily. I have a Ochain/aegis/burtgang pld in ls and he cant be touched if he had higher tier cures he'd be unstoppable. groups in ff11 that have optimized tanks for NMs/HNMs will outperform groups w/ mnks and warriors tanking because when a mnk or warrior tanks in most cases it greatly affects there dps/burst dmg. When u got a DD being able to freely DD they can contribute alot more than tanking/DDing.

[Physic]

Rift fails at being called a game period it almost has more lackluster visuals than WOW. it looks like it was developed for the 3DO its so poorly artistically designed..... how do i know this?lol Because i tried the free 7 day trail and it was all i could do not to laugh so hard at the sorry excuse of a game. I played for 5mins then uninstalled it; thank god.

And a very good PLD in ff11 still is the best tank in alot of situations and w/ the new content outside of abyssea mnk and war will not be able to tank as easily. I have a Ochain/aegis/burtgang pld in ls and he cant be touched if he had higher tier cures he'd be unstoppable. groups in ff11 that have optimized tanks for NMs/HNMs will outperform groups w/ mnks and warriors tanking because when a mnk or warrior tanks in most cases it greatly affects there dps/burst dmg. When u got a DD being able to freely DD they can contribute alot more than tanking/DDing.

i stopped before abysea, i low manned many things, paladin is better in straight defense by far, and in hate, but i kill faster and avoid taking damage. There are some things i have no chance on as monk, fast hitting accurate mobs with high evasion would eat me up, aoe using monsters magic aoe users, but there are a lot of monster that dont fit that bill.

But really at the end of the day, it was our combination of people and over all strategies that allowed us to do things others couldnt, im sure paladin could have done many of these things, but long as we won, who cares. I main tanked in low man dynamis for the win, just because i knew how, and what to pull better than the official tanks, and the things that could eat me up, the mages had plans to deal with, Im just saying whatever works, is good.

[Duelle]

Rift fails at being called a game period it almost has more lackluster visuals than WOW. it looks like it was developed for the 3DO its so poorly artistically designed

And what does artistic direction have to with the topic at hand?

Pere is saying MRD needs some sort of niche because MRD won't be acceptable as a tank or damage dealer in the content that matters. I'm saying that MRD should be a weapon class with two possible paths: tank, or DPS, depending on how the player wants to set themselves up. I only brought up Rift, WoW et al because they happen to have just that: classes with a base concept that can go in different directions due to specializations. WoW alone has four tank classes - Warrior, Paladin, Druid, Death Knight. That's a MUCH bigger pool of tanks to choose from than, say, FFXIV with only Gladiator, or FFXI with just PLD (nevermind the mess Ninja created).

Or do you want MRD to be tied to some gimmick that people might find useful for a bit until shell leaders figure out ways around needing a MRD in the raid?