M4S has officially been beaten without healers in week 2

[Aravell]

That is my point someone will always be unhappy, but to openly say x should have to suffer because y does is not really the best way to go about getting support imo. End of the day someone is going to get the short end of the stick, it is just a matter of picking who that will be. All jokes aside it seems SE has be loud and clear who they want to get the short end of the stick.

I just want to point out that it's not a requirement that someone gets the short stick. In an ideal world, we'd have a trinity system where all 3 parts get a mid-length stick.

What we're stuck with now is tanks getting the long stick, DPS getting a mid-length stick, and both the tanks and the DPS are still trying to take more from the healers short stick. They do need to rebalance the sticks or the healer will be left with no stick at all.

[Lak14]

That is my point someone will always be unhappy, but to openly say x should have to suffer because y does is not really the best way to go about getting support imo. End of the day someone is going to get the short end of the stick, it is just a matter of picking who that will be. All jokes aside it seems SE has be loud and clear who they want to get the short end of the stick.

Edit: As a tank I would gladly give up our damage if they made aggro something we had a to manage again outside of just throw on a tank stance and ignore it. As an example, I wish they would add more mechanics that use both tanks in interesting ways.

I bet many other tanks would not want to give up their damage but damage is not why I personally play tank.

sir, you dont even raid.

[Supersnow845]

That is my point someone will always be unhappy, but to openly say x should have to suffer because y does is not really the best way to go about getting support imo. End of the day someone is going to get the short end of the stick, it is just a matter of picking who that will be. All jokes aside it seems SE has be loud and clear who they want to get the short end of the stick.

Edit: As a tank I would gladly give up our damage if they made aggro something we had a to manage again outside of just throw on a tank stance and ignore it. As an example, I wish they would add more mechanics that use both tanks in interesting ways.

I bet many other tanks would not want to give up their damage but damage is not why I personally play tank.

Where did I say I specifically wanted tanks to suffer

I said that it would cut off this healerless speed kill meta at the knees because bringing extra tanks would no longer be faster than just running a standard comp

If you think more tanks over healers is the balanced distribution and moving back to standard comps being the best is hurting tanks then that’s just excessive tank bias built into your perception

[Bobby66]

sir, you dont even raid.

Sir I do, I just don't sweat over it. I don't have the same amount of time I did when I played in HW and stuff. If you are wondering about logs, this is not my main account my main account was sent on vacation many moons ago.

Also say I did not raid are you saying that my play experience should not matter? Say I only did dungeons, my enjoyment of the roles should not be taken into consideration? You don't need to be a raider to have an opinion and changes from the top do impact those on the bottom.

Where did I say I specifically wanted tanks to suffer

I said that it would cut off this healerless speed kill meta at the knees because bringing extra tanks would no longer be faster than just running a standard comp

If you think more tanks over healers is the balanced distribution and moving back to standard comps being the best is hurting tanks then that’s just excessive tank bias built into your perception

You want shift something from tanks to healer to kneecap a speed run meta that does not impact majority of players. As you said it would not solve the core issue healers have, but would fix the small percentage of the community that uses not standard comps to reach a certain goal.

That shift would greatly impact tanks overall though would it not if you suddenly gave them healer DPS. I doubt that change would go over well and I am sure you know that.

I just want to point out that it's not a requirement that someone gets the short stick. In an ideal world, we'd have a trinity system where all 3 parts get a mid-length stick.

What we're stuck with now is tanks getting the long stick, DPS getting a mid-length stick, and both the tanks and the DPS are still trying to take more from the healers short stick. They do need to rebalance the sticks or the healer will be left with no stick at all.

In an ideal world yes, but I do not think SE is capable of doing that at this point.

[Supersnow845]

Sir I do, I just don't sweat over it. I don't have the same amount of time I did when I played in HW and stuff. If you are wondering about logs, this is not my main account my main account was sent on vacation many moons ago.

Also say I did not raid are you saying that my play experience should not matter? Say I only did dungeons, my enjoyment of the roles should not be taken into consideration? You don't need to be a raider to have an opinion and changes from the top do impact those on the bottom.



You want shift something from tanks to healer to kneecap a speed run meta that does not impact majority of players. As you said it would not solve the core issue healers have, but would fix the small percentage of the community that uses not standard comps to reach a certain goal.

That shift would greatly impact tanks overall though would it not if you suddenly gave them healer DPS. I doubt that change would go over well and I am sure you know that.



In an ideal world yes, but I do not think SE is capable of doing that at this point.

So why is this speed run meta not a large concern to healers but losing it is a big concern to tanks

[Turtledeluxe]

See, I think that is why some people are also against this idea behind the strike cause of comments like this. I get the intent, but to some it may just come off as whelp tanks should suffer for a little if we have to suffer. That is never a fun look.

Tanks getting nerfed is not suffering. Nerfs happen all the time. In every game. Throughout all time.

And as you are surely well aware, particular tanks are overtuned for all content. Yes, all content across all difficulty levels. It's beyond a balance problem. It's actually a joke.

And someone also generously provided an example of WoW devs achieving this very thing without destroying the game. They just heard the feedback and agreed and said enough.

[Bobby66]

So why is this speed run meta not a large concern to healers but losing it is a big concern to tanks

Losing the speed running meta would not be a huge issue to tanks, but suddenly making it so tanks do the amount of damage of healers currently and healers do the amount of damage of tanks would impact many players enjoyment. You pretty much will be nerfing tanks because healers were getting sidelined in a speed running meta and the change itself does nothing to solve the issue that healers have.

That change would ripple throughout all forms of content. I agree healers need some love have never said otherwise. Unless you feel they should up the amount of damage healers do to match what they do with tanks but that would require complete readjustment to all forms of content to account for the higher amount of overall damage.

Tanks getting nerfed is not suffering. Nerfs happen all the time. In every game. Throughout all time.

Nerfing the overall damage of tanks just because healers got sidelined in a speed running meta is messed up. For tanks it would mean across the board they do overall less damage and the nerf itself does not solve the core issue with healers. Yeah. I am sure that would go over well.

I mean come on we all must see how that is a messed up request / nerf. Maybe it would not bother tanks, maybe ask the tank forum for their feedback.

I am not calling for a damage nerf personally. But something about them certainly needs to be adjusted so that they do not replace healers in any content outside being a slight emergency support for a limit period of time and are certainly not immortal in casual content

I agree adjustments do have to be made but I just don't see what really could be done that really solves the core issue healers have atm which is engagement that does not ripple into lower end content.

Personally I think having such wide access to in combat raises does add to trivialize content at times, and I do think overall tanks do have far too high sustain. Just idk if adjusting that would bolster the healing role per-se or just make it more stressful for many players because that is a sudden responsibility shift that has not been present in the game for a long time.

Think I might hit daily post cap.

[Turtledeluxe]

Losing the speed running meta would not be a huge issue to tanks, but suddenly making it so tanks do the amount of damage of healers currently and healers do the amount of damage of tanks would impact many players enjoyment. You pretty much will be nerfing tanks because healers were getting sidelined in a speed running meta and the change itself does nothing to solve the issue that healers have.

That change would ripple throughout all forms of content. I agree healers need some love have never said otherwise. Unless you feel they should up the amount of damage healers do to match what they do with tanks but that would require complete readjustment to all forms of content to account for the higher amount of overall damage.



Nerfing the overall damage of tanks just because healers got sidelined in a speed running meta is messed up. For tanks it would mean across the board they do overall less damage and the nerf itself does not solve the core issue with healers. Yeah. I am sure that would go over well.

I mean come on we all must see how that is a messed up request / nerf. Maybe it would not bother tanks, maybe ask the tank forum for their feedback.

I am not calling for a damage nerf personally. But something about them certainly needs to be adjusted so that they do not replace healers in any content outside being a slight emergency support for a limit period of time and are certainly not immortal in casual content.

And inb4 "casual content doesn't matter". It absolutely does. It's time for the dev team to nerf and yes, it will ripple across all difficulty levels. As it clearly needs to do.

[Aravell]

I mean come on we all must see how that is a messed up request / nerf. Maybe it would not bother tanks, maybe ask the tank forum for their feedback.

Honestly, to achieve healthy balance, the tanks do require a nerf in some aspect.

We can see the trinity as 3 different aspects: Damage, Healing and Mitigation. Healers are proficient in both healing and mitigation, therefore they deal less damage, this is fine and understandable. DPS specialise in dealing damage, therefore they have limited healing and mitigation, this is also understandable. But now we come to tanks, they're proficient in mitigation and they have some healing and damage, therefore if they want to dip further into healing, they have to either give up some damage or mitigation.

That's just the baseline for healthy balance in a trinity game.

[Hyperia]

Right now, tanks are so overpowered that it’s like dropping the USA’s best main battle tank into World War 1, almost nothing will hurt or stop it.

Tanks are supposed to be agro magnet meat shields that position monsters so everybody else can do their job and not be gods of everything.