"A system that rewards effort and innovation" can't be buzzwords for imbalance-get

[Peregrine]

Reward Diversity
-Party bonus: Strength in Diversity. Share the burden of the fight efficiently, decreasing stamina costs. Effectively haste.

Prevent job-stacking synergy
-Eliminate buff preservation on hit 2 and 3 of multishot
-Change archer's heavy shot to a status effect that can be multipliedx3, reduces regain instead of depletes TP.
-Enemy rage mode or enhanced weaponskill activation for damage dominated by DoT or certain types of damage. Enemy protection from 1-shot TKO methods (chi blasting, manaburning, multishot*5).

Eliminate cliché challenge
-Enhance unique gameplay features involved in 20% boss overdrive modes
-Reduce reliance on heavier AoE, more frequent AoE, and 1-shot weaponskills in 20% boss overdrive modes.
-Add status effect doughnut abilities to penalize ranged attack on bosses to compensate for any meleeing AoE's implemented: 1:1 ratio overall.
-Enhance access to key abilities like stun if stunning is implemented as a required tactic.
-Enhance access to true crowd control, or reduce occasions where difficulty primarily lies in the N of the enemy group. Eg: marauder: AoE petrify (pseudosleep). Pugilist: Knockout (single-target pseudosleep). Lancer: Pacify (lock an enemy in a hold, sacrificing your actions to prevent theirs)

Prevent ranged jobs from dominating endgame
-Enhance meleer output. Balance output required for fights to ensure ranged damage is usually insufficient to succeed alone.
-Eliminate TP-feeding argument on bosses that prevent light DPS meleeing
-Provide meleers party strengths that they are actually invited for (Marauder's aren't invited to AoE, or CC, pugs aren't invited to tank)

Eliminate job stigmas quickly
-Respond to warning signs of job impotency (lolmrd comments, anti-lnc arguments, pug is a waste of a party slot, why invite X when there's Y to do it better) quickly, first with verbal acknowledgement that the job is insufficient and that a patch will be produced within 3 months= of the start of warning signs.

Do not allow imbalance to snowball
-monitor Youtube for bragging tactic videos using repetitive styles.
-Edit new: Record setups brought to and results of key battles to monitor for imbalanced shifts in player choices.
-Quickly incorporate player-designed tactics into the game by modifying and approving the tactic officially, or patch an unacceptable tactic. Time frame: within 1 month of discovering the tactics' use.
-Fix all imbalances within a period of level cycling to prevent an entire generation of players levelling a job just for the imbalance and effectively rendering balance correction unpopular by biased participation.

[Jinrya-Geki]

:C Nothing was more annoying in FFXI than that.

Person>> Need 1 more for Nyzul.
Me>> Can I come as a 75 Pld?
Person>> No.

Couldn't go to Salvage, couldn't do Einherjar, not liked in Merit parties, Not allowed in some fights like proto-ultima where Nin/drks were wanted. (Hate Nins, and their utusemi hope they don't ever show up in FFXIV)

A Paladin should be good for every fight.

If it happens in this game where I can't join something cause of my class, be grateful if you are the one saying that to me, that I can't kick you in the face.

Though I am 50 Con/Thm I am not a healer. I hate healing, I'll fall asleep I am not kidding.

[Amineri]

I have a thought: Why do Mobs always gain TP from the melees during a fight?

Why not have a monster gain TP automatically but melees disrupt and decrease the Mob's TP?

The Mob tries to sleep/stun/incapacitate the melees so it can gain it's TP move.

Mages need to pay attention to Status Effects as well as Heals.

Tanks do what they always do.

Archers would be no better or worse than any DD except somewhat less desirable with mob control.
(just don't stand next to the mages)

I think that conceptually this is the role that Lancers are to play. Moonrise (slows Mob TP generation and makes Mob TP powers cost more) and Twisting Vice (completely eliminates Mobs current TB) lets a lancer nearly completely shut down a Mob's special abilities, subject to misses and evasions, naturally, this comes at the cost of reducing Lancer damage output, though.

In the current system, though, both Moonrise and Twisting Vice can be used cross-class. Archers get a basic attack Heavy Shot (hence usable only by archers) that damage Mob TP. So, in the current system, an Archer equips Pikemanship (increase LNC affinity), equips Moonrise and Twisting Vice, and uses Heavy Shot, so now damages does the job better then a Lancer.

I fully anticipate Twisting Vice being made into a Lancer-only ability during the reworking going on, if only because it is one of the only abilities that costs five points to equip (hence in my fevered imagination the dev team 'almost' made it a class ability).

However, I also don't want to see a situation where a Lancer is REQUIRED in a party, nor do I want to see parties of 7 Lancers + THM that win by never allowing the enemy to use a special attack. To me that's just another cheesy, boring tactic akin to 7 Archers and a THM.

[Amineri]

Awesome ideas, Peregrine.
I'll add some of my own thoughts in red. Feel free to keep or toss.

Reward Diversity
-Party bonus: Strength in Diversity. Share the burden of the fight efficiently, decreasing stamina costs. Effectively haste.
-Change Light Party / Full Party bonuses to only count number of distinct job/class combos.

Prevent job-stacking synergy
-Eliminate buff preservation on hit 2 and 3 of multishot
-Change archer's heavy shot to a status effect that can be multipliedx3, reduces regain instead of depletes TP.
-Enemy rage mode or enhanced weaponskill activation for damage dominated by DoT or certain types of damage. Enemy protection from 1-shot TKO methods (chi blasting, manaburning, multishot*5).
-Introduce mob buffs that generate diminishing returns for the same damage type. E.g. after taking (slash/pierce/etc) damage type, further (slash/pierce/etc) damage type is reduced by 10% for 4 seconds.

Eliminate cliché challenge
-Enhance unique gameplay features involved in 20% boss overdrive modes
-Reduce reliance on heavier AoE, more frequent AoE, and 1-shot weaponskills in 20% boss overdrive modes.
-Add status effect doughnut abilities to penalize ranged attack on bosses to compensate for any meleeing AoE's implemented: 1:1 ratio overall.
-'Doughnut' abilities could include very long range AoEs that do greater damage / lower stun at close range, and lower damage / longer stun at long range.
-Grant melee classes reactive defensive abilities to mitigate AoE damage (e.g. reduce damage of next AoE attack by 50%)
-Enhance access to key abilities like stun if stunning is implemented as a required tactic.
-Enhance access to true crowd control, or reduce occasions where difficulty primarily lies in the N of the enemy group. Eg: marauder: AoE petrify (pseudosleep). Pugilist: Knockout (single-target pseudosleep). Lancer: Pacify (lock an enemy in a hold, sacrificing your actions to prevent theirs) Gladiator: Reactive Strike (Gladiator stun-interrupts targets next action, but any gladiator action interrupts ability)

Prevent ranged jobs from dominating endgame
-Enhance meleer output. Balance output required for fights to ensure ranged damage is usually insufficient to succeed alone.
-Eliminate TP-feeding argument on bosses that prevent light DPS meleeing
-Provide meleers party strengths that they are actually invited for (Marauder's aren't invited to AoE, or CC, pugs aren't invited to tank)
-Introduce mechanics that prevent all enemies from targeting the same target (i.e. "harasser" minion that cannot target same player as boss)
-Introduce enemies that are primarily ranged, and inflict greater damage at long range / lesser damage at short range
- Introduce "thickened air" shields, where the amount of damage is reduced proportionally to the distance between player and enemy
- Introduce bubble shields (ala Limsa opening cut scene) that prevent players from outside the shield from inflicting damage until the body part generating the shield is incapacitated.

Eliminate job stigmas quickly
-Respond to warning signs of job impotency (lolmrd comments, anti-lnc arguments, pug is a waste of a party slot, why invite X when there's Y to do it better) quickly, first with verbal acknowledgement that the job is insufficient and that a patch will be produced within 3 months= of the start of warning signs.

Do not allow imbalance to snowball
-monitor Youtube for bragging tactic videos using repetitive styles.
-Quickly incorporate player-designed tactics into the game by modifying and approving the tactic officially, or patch an unacceptable tactic. Time frame: within 1 month of discovering the tactics' use.
-Fix all imbalances within a period of level cycling to prevent an entire generation of players levelling a job just for the imbalance and effectively rendering balance correction unpopular by biased participation.
-Build tool that logs party composition of parties that engage bosses. Trend the results.
-Have GMs spot-check and observe boss fights, looking for imbalance. Introduce new abilities and/or tactics to bosses to counter imbalanced tactics.

[Peregrine]

Recording data on party setups and results on important fights is a great idea. It quantifies to what degree the players are flocking to imbalance to win or even try.

If they see that 3/4 teams that win ouryu fights are just stacks of black mages, then clearly there's a problem.

[Punainen]

The biggest problem with systems that work that way is even if you are a mage/tank/range, the party will then FORCE you to play the EXACT way they want, and there is no room for 'playstyle' at all.

I stopped partying altogether after I hit lvl 60 RDM in XI, because I wasn't ALLOWED to smack the mob with my staff, I wasn't ALLOWED to nuke it, and I HAD to main heal, I HAD to refresh/regen/haste/protect/shell EVERYONE, and I HAD to debuff the mob, and I wasn't ALLOWED to have any downtime whatsoever. Even the best of the best RDMs can't keep up with all that shit. Personally I was able to do ALL the buffs/debuffs they wanted and have zero downtime...but then they also insisted I MAIN heal, and I couldn't get a party if I wouldn't do it. And when I'd try I'd get downtime (mind you I was a taru with MP+ gear) and then they'd bitch at me and kick me from the pt.

So my biggest fear is that all this 'innovation' will pidgeonhole me into a playstyle and make players make unreasonable demands of other players.

[Amineri]

Being told how to play your class is bad, but being told you have to play a particular class is worse.

It's the difference between "Play your RDM exactly this way or get kicked" versus "lolRDM. Go rank up a Ranger if you want to join."

I'd rather see each class have multiple possible roles, and some freedom, but some people (most, even?) tend to flock to certain tactics. The only way to avoid that is in the company you keep.

[Dragon]

I would implement regimens and strategies that gain exponential momentum based on the different classes in it, and I would make them so beneficial that teams that whore out jobs for imbalance have a difficult time keeping up. Thus, a party with only two or three kinds of classes or jobs in it is always inferior to a party with 6 classes or jobs in it. People flock to imbalance too easily. The solution is to OP balance.

Or have a status effect, where if your party is balanced, you get enhancements like comrade in arms. "Strength in Diversity"--TP regain? Attack and potency boost? Regimen output+30%?

The solution is to overpower balance. Reward diversity. Don't just sit there and develop challenge that benefits the same stunners, sleepers, spike damagers, and ranged attackers as always.

But I'm not in the business of saying how it should be done. I only care about what needs done. I don't care how it's done honestly. You cannot put hackneyed challenge checks into this game, or it'll instantly become and archer and thaumafest.

Honestly my solution to archer is to give meleers multishot. Archers have no business avoiding AoE while being the kings of spike and DPS.

Thaumaturge...yeah it's just a matter of fiddling with their abilities. I like the idea of a magical tank, but if they're the magical tank...they'd best be paying for that with a big fat damage reduction like gladiator does.

They've already proven they can kick the player base's habit of inviting as few people as you can, to the point where parties actively want more people as opposed to wanting as few as possible. They've already designed content where strangers who NM hunt are better off pairing up and helping each other out rather than countercamping.

They can create a system where job diversity is celebrated, not intentionally avoided because it just dilutes good jobs with bad ones.

At first I didn't know what to think about you, but now I think I might like you even though I slightly disagree in the following....

Then it is the SITUATIONS that need changed.

Stop making every boss go berserk at 20% life and start spamming AoEs and power attacks. That only plays to stacking archers that can spike it down at the end and mages who don't get hit. It plays against meleers who are at that point simply sitting ducks.

I think instead of that, maybe SE should make rage give said NM a boost to range attack AND AoE-range to the point that ranged classes would be hit by an AoE if they want to stick in range that would also prevent them from simply getting out of 'range' to avoid an AoE (like let's say a ranged attack is 20m, well the AoE range normally would be 15m, but then upon Rage, it'd be boosted to 40m).

Stop relying on "stun" innovations to avoid death unless all the jobs have stun.

Definitely!

Stop making fights more challenging by simply adding more numbers of enemies. That plays to mages and spike damagers who can immediately take enemies out of the picture. Divine might, what did you do? You Chi blasted or manabursted something to win that, by the demographic none of you probably fought that fight toe to toe with them. You did SOMETHING to avoid the challenge, and I guarantee the dragoon had nothing to do with it.

OR make those adds AoE-resistant as well?

If you're going to design fights that cater to certain jobs, you can't keep designing the same stupid mechanics that keep playing to the same jobs. If you can't design a fight where you can make a dragoon as wanted as a black mage, your game needs balancing work. Your dragoon needs help.

Amen.

Things like that would be great, but then you have the issue of being forced to have a certain job type. What if nobody from your LS has levelled that job, or there's nobody free online from one of those jobs? It's the same issue that we had in XI where we couldn't even level unless we had a fairly specific setup for a party.

Then your linkshell has a problem. Even the most social linkshells have at least a job or two from each major archetype.

[Dragon]

Recording data on party setups and results on important fights is a great idea. It quantifies to what degree the players are flocking to imbalance to win or even try.

If they see that 3/4 teams that win ouryu fights are just stacks of black mages, then clearly there's a problem.

Let's get married. :3

[Peregrine]

I slightly disagree with eliminating boss overdrive modes.

While the idea is admirable, for a lot of party team setups that don't insist on bringing imbalance to the fights, these epic battles are difficult enough. In FFXI the balance in fights was so skewed to pleasing the players who took imbalance to fight after fight that many balanced teams never even get to the overdrive mode, or if they do they're already hurting and don't stand a chance.

The natural response to that statement by those people who use imbalance is to "get better" but they're not good players themselves so that response is hypocritical. They're just bringing overpowered imbalance and letting it win that fight for them. Their jobs win fights. They don't win fights. They'd do just as poorly with setups many of us used, and those setups look more respectable and honest than the ones typically used to move up the CoP ranks.

I can't think of a good overdrive balance that won't discard all meleers and people who can't AoE, stun, ranged attack, or spike damage, so to me it's got to be fundamentally changed or dropped if a solution can't be reached.

You have people who flock to imbalance, making the game brokenly easy on themselves, arguing that the game should be harder to please them and their playstyles. Their entire playstyle is the problem. They only choose the setups that by default kill every other setup. They only need two or three kinds of these setups.

They don't understand how monochromatic that makes the game, when you make the game as difficult as the player-rigged imbalance-gets are overpowered. Then the game just becomes a playground for archers and thaumaturges, and no other team stands a chance.

Unfortunately you have archers and thaumaturges going I'm okay with that. Sucks to be you all.
So a good third of players are all for sticking to the status quo where they'll be doted on and respected because of their job, not because of who they are.