Removing elemental nukes from WHM

[Jinrya-Geki]

really... the class/job designs for cnj/whm and thm/blm are fine...... The only thing the ideas of this thread can achieve is an attempt to make WHM more like WHM from some other game.

It's fine that it's not the same. Some jobs change a lot from one game to the next.

Actually, they don't. Freeze is good, flare is good if you have the balls to get close enough, and the other fire spells are fine if you need AoE. Blizzara isnt super powerful but is very useful when you need instant damage.

The only good thing about freeze is the enmity drop, it's damage is not outstanding.

Flare is aoe around you, that alone makes it useless. It's DoT is awful, why? Because you mostly are using it on trash ,mobs, which everyone else should be using their aoes as well killing them, like the ants. What good is a DoT when the mob is dead within 1 or 2 aoes? And if the tank kites, are you gonna chase around the mob to try and flare it? I like to stay as far away as the mob as possible to ensure maximum damage potential, not waste my time trying to wait for the right time to run in waste precious seconds to rest or deal max damage.

And forgive me for not clarifying enough, when I mean Fire and Ice I mean Fire/Fira/Firaga and Blizzard/Blizzara.

Misers weakness is fire, yet you deal way more damage doing lightning and you say more MP.

[Kallera]

The only good thing about freeze is the enmity drop, it's damage is not outstanding.

Flare is aoe around you, that alone makes it useless. It's DoT is awful, why? Because you mostly are using it on trash ,mobs, which everyone else should be using their aoes as well killing them, like the ants. What good is a DoT when the mob is dead within 1 or 2 aoes? And if the tank kites, are you gonna chase around the mob to try and flare it? I like to stay as far away as the mob as possible to ensure maximum damage potential, not waste my time trying to wait for the right time to run in waste precious seconds to rest or deal max damage.

And forgive me for not clarifying enough, when I mean Fire and Ice I mean Fire/Fira/Firaga and Blizzard/Blizzara.

Misers weakness is fire, yet you deal way more damage doing lightning and you say more MP.

And when a mobs weakness is stone you get on the forums to complain and demand blm be reworked. . Not sure about the damage, but its pretty mp effective...

One spell element shouldn't solve every encounter.

[Laume]

*sits backs and reads* At least I'm learning a lot on how to play those two jobs. I main drg so i never really cared for learning the jobs.

[Kinseykinz]

They have their uses sure, but they are utility based. If it wasn't for them being elemental and taking up possible slots for more single target elemental nukes, it would be fine but because they are it extremely limits Black Mage's options. They can't take advantage of any weaknesses, they can't avoid hitting enemy resistances. Because the utility dictates the use of the spell rather than the weaknesses and resistances of the enemy. Which is why Thm/Blm needs their spells revised, they should still have the utility but it should not be tied to one singular element.

edit:

For example they could make fire/ra/ga/flare blizzard/ra/ga/freeze Thunder/ra/ga/burst all single target nukes and bring back toggle or something similar. But that toggle/ability halved the potency of the nukes themselves or increased the spells mp cost. Replace certain other utility effects with abilities/spells and then you pretty much have the best of both worlds.

Way earlier in the thread it was pointed out that the it appears from watching Alpha ARR gameplay that the 'debuff' effects were removed from CNJ/WHM's DD spells. It was also pointed out that all classes/jobs are getting reworked. It is fairly likely that Black Mages nukes will be stripped of some of their 'enfeebles' etc but upped in damage. SE had to add these effects in 1.0 because otherwise, we'd have no debuffer...but with the addition of Arcanist/Scholar to ARR, debuffs will fall to them. My point... Blizzard might actually be a spell tree that does more damage than it did in 1.0.

[Jinrya-Geki]

And when a mobs weakness is stone you get on the forums to complain and demand blm be reworked. . Not sure about the damage, but its pretty mp effective...

One spell element shouldn't solve every encounter.

Yeah I do demand it be reworked. Because the split was the dumbest idea ever. Cjn/whm should have gotten Banish/Banishra and Holy/Holyra and that All-Mp holy should be renamed Mega Holy. They could have used Dalamud event to change the story of Cjn and Thm entirely and give Thm/Blm all elemental spells again.

Cause you you know what resists holy/light damage? Mobs that are holy-based. How many mobs are we gonna fight that are light/holy based? Versus the ones that are Lightning resistant, or have a weakness to ice. The answer is already a staggering painful obvious answer.

Garuda weak to ice, who spams ice on her? No one.

Miser is weak to fire, yet lightning is far superior damage and MP efficient.

Titan will resist lightning, so what are we gonna do? Dry our mp pool out trying to use fire, or try to lolice him to death? No we should have Water/Water/Waterga that is just as effective as Thundera combo.

Ramuh, is the same problem if the spells stay exactly the same. If we had Stone/Stonera/Stonega similar to Thunder combo it wouldn't be a problem.

But they are wasted on Cjn/Whm. I don't care if you want to solo, or damage deal. Ok cool, but you screw me as black mage when it comes to resistances and lowering my damage potential, when you could have a different spell list and still have a damage output. Yet all the white mages seem content with keeping the elemental spells which you don't need.

[Kinseykinz]

Yeah I do demand it be reworked. Because the split was the dumbest idea ever. Cjn/whm should have gotten Banish/Banishra and Holy/Holyra and that All-Mp holy should be renamed Mega Holy. They could have used Dalamud event to change the story of Cjn and Thm entirely and give Thm/Blm all elemental spells again.

Cause you you know what resists holy/light damage? Mobs that are holy-based. How many mobs are we gonna fight that are light/holy based? Versus the ones that are Lightning resistant, or have a weakness to ice. The answer is already a staggering painful obvious answer.

Garuda weak to ice, who spams ice on her? No one.

Miser is weak to fire, yet lightning is far superior damage and MP efficient.

Titan will resist lightning, so what are we gonna do? Dry our mp pool out trying to use fire, or try to lolice him to death? No we should have Water/Water/Waterga that is just as effective as Thundera combo.

Ramuh, is the same problem if the spells stay exactly the same. If we had Stone/Stonera/Stonega similar to Thunder combo it wouldn't be a problem.

But they are wasted on Cjn/Whm. I don't care if you want to solo, or damage deal. Ok cool, but you screw me as black mage when it comes to resistances and lowering my damage potential, when you could have a different spell list and still have a damage output. Yet all the white mages seem content with keeping the elemental spells which you don't need.

Or...you could have faith that the devs are bright enough to realize that Black Mage can't be effective on battles like Titan and Ramuh given their spell-set limitations and create other battle mechanics within the fight that still make BLM's useful...just not in a direct manner.
-Smaller pack of mobs that spawn during the battle Mobs that need slept
-Smaller pack of mobs that spawn during the battle that need aoe'd
-Machines or devices that need 'charged' with thunder magic to aid in battle
...etc

Also, the actual Elemental damage each type of spell puts out is far less important in this game than what the mechanics behind the spell allow it to do...especially when cast in a combo.

Case in point: Mistress fight.
She's weak to fire yet lighting is the more effective spell.

Lighting magic is SUPPOSED to be the better choice for comboing on Single-target Mobs. When cast in combo, the combo bonuses even help to raise your damage.

Fire magic is typically for groups of weaker mobs that need quick AOE damage.

Ice magic is typically 'defensive' cast spells for the Black Mage. (this is also why in 1.0 the ice spells tended to do less damage as less damage=less hate)

During 1.0 SE changed how the whole Black Mage thing works. In past games, Elemental Affinity meant everything...now the modifiers are more important. Sure, there are exceptions...it would be a terribad idea to cast Lighting on Ramuh, but overall, even if a normal mob is resistant to a specific spell you can still kill it with exactly that spell.


Lastly, if this is just a 'BLM needs spells just in case they have to face an elemental resistant mob' the more prudent path would be asking for an 'Umbral' DD spell and not an Elemental, as then you would always have at least one spell you could cast no matter the mobs elemental resistance.

As you said yourself:

How many mobs are we gonna fight that are light/holy based? Versus the ones that are Lightning resistant, or have a weakness to ice. The answer is already a staggering painful obvious answer.

Well the same could be said of Dark/Umbral-based spells. So if anything ask for that, and leave CNJ/WHM out of it.

[Alhanelem]

Flare is aoe around you, that alone makes it useless.

Subjective opinion. If you know you have a few seconds where the mob is not going to use a deadly AoE, you can cast it. It's also particularly fun with BLMs casting it in a group.

Necromancer in WoW had some fire spells similar to this that required enemies to be nearby (and on the ground)- that didn't stop anyone from using it in that game.

Spells like this can be effective if you know when to use them. I had a lot of fun with some friends on chocobo escorts where we would run ahead to where we knew the enemies would spawn, and start casting flare (because it didn't require a target) before the mobs spawned, timing it so it would hit them as soon as they appeared and instantly annihilating them. You can't do something like this with any other spell other than blizzara.

Yeah I do demand it be reworked. Because the split was the dumbest idea ever.

Funny, nobody complained about this in the other 12 Final Fantasies where the black mage (or most black-magey character) didn't have every element. So why is this only a problem now?

I gotta leave work, else I'd actually check black mage movesets in the chocobo spin off games.

I have FFF Chocobo's Dungeon on Wii, and Chocobo only uses thunder fire and ice on black mage. Interestingly, Chocobo uses the elemental ninjustu from FFXI of earth wind and water as Ninja.

[ispano]

Warlock in WoW had some fire spells similar to this that required enemies to be nearby (and on the ground)- that didn't stop anyone from using it in that game.

Was called Hellfire, and the reason it wasn't used as much, or only in certain situations is because it was channeled AND you took the damage as well.

[Radacci]

I don't see why BLM must be OP in every fight, melees aren't; and BLM don't care about that do they? that's why in 1.0, in some fights you weren't welcome, unless you were BLM.
It's silly notion that BLM should always be able to do 2x damage, because there should always be some enemy around, with elemental weakness...Why not ask for all mobs to be weak to piercing damage, so DRG by default can do 2x damage on them? or to swords, so GLD can always do 2x damage, since they are so weak anyways.
I get it BLM is top damage dealer, but they do a lot of damage even without weaknesses.

[Jinrya-Geki]

Subjective opinion. If you know you have a few seconds where the mob is not going to use a deadly AoE, you can cast it. It's also particularly fun with BLMs casting it in a group.

Necromancer in WoW had some fire spells similar to this that required enemies to be nearby (and on the ground)- that didn't stop anyone from using it in that game.

Spells like this can be effective if you know when to use them. I had a lot of fun with some friends on chocobo escorts where we would run ahead to where we knew the enemies would spawn, and start casting flare (because it didn't require a target) before the mobs spawned, timing it so it would hit them as soon as they appeared and instantly annihilating them. You can't do something like this with any other spell other than blizzara.

Funny, nobody complained about this in the other 12 Final Fantasies where the black mage (or most black-magey character) didn't have every element. So why is this only a problem now?

I have FFF Chocobo's Dungeon on Wii, and Chocobo only uses thunder fire and ice on black mage. Interestingly, Chocobo uses the elemental ninjustu from FFXI of earth wind and water as Ninja.

Cause in every other final fantasy, Fire/Blizzard/Thunder did almost the same damage as each other. They were equals, if you ran into a mob that was fire-based, you could you thunder or ice to do the same damage.

In FFXIV if you run into a lightning-based mob you are screwed. You can't do nearly the same damage to a mob that isn't lightning resistant. That is my problem, it's not traditional.

And on the truly rare situation a mob was strong against fire/lightning/ice like some in FFIX or FFII. Some bosses resisted all magics but one. You know which one that was? Flare. So yeah when tradition if all spells failed flare would pick up the slack. It doesn't here.

Necromancers usually have stamina as one of their main stats so they have HP to spare. They can take a hit or two.

On trash mobs, flare and blizzara are ok. But I would gladly give them up for far range single target spells for high damage. I want to be a high damage caster, not a smuck garbage man. Someone else can have that job.

@Kinsey
It makes no sense for Black mage for to have scourge/scourge II and 2 other spells, we thrive on our role to do damage.

While the white mage is to thrive on healing, but with Banish/Banishga Holy/Holy II, you get the option to do mnore than just heal at certain points.

Black mages role has only ever been to deal damage, bio in previous games did high damage with a small chance to DoT. So why should we be the one's limited to 2 combos? White mage doesn't need to have super high damage, that's our job, so we should have the spells that meet the enemies weakness. Which is why we should have all elemental spells.

If you give use two combos such as scourge/ scourge II and Unholy/ Unholy II then we just end up at the same bad place, mob resistance. We black mages hit a wall of mob resistance, we could never exploit a mobs weakness therefore the developers would have to remove resistances for us to be effective.