Highly Notorious Monsters

[Alhanelem]

Me, and several others in fact have said we agree sky/sea and I guess even ZNM/VNM's did something right, but guess what? FF11 had all of them as an option with HNM's, not just what you like, hell, I remember people trying to explain this to you before the servers went down and you just cannot seem to understand that I/we do not care if you liked... lets say pvp, I do not personally enjoy pvp, do you see me starting a thread saying PvP should not be in the game?

No, because PvP isn't a fundamentally flawed game mechanic like spawn windows are.

Spawn windows are the only thing I'm fighting against. I want to go to the NM when I know it's going to show up, and either fight it or not. I don't want to sit and wait for 3 hours or more. Why would you have NMs with shitty spawn conditions "as an option?" That would be a pretty terrible option that pretty much nobody would end up actually taking. I dont' care if an HNM takes days to pop, as long as I don't also have to wait for hours after that spawn time is up. NMs and drops that are only rare because the number of people willing to put up with stupid design decisions is low is not a good way to make things.

Spawn. Windows. Are. Garbage. They add nothing to the experience. Why have them? 24, 48 hour pop windows are fine- It's ok If I only get to see the NM once every so often- but I shouldn't have to devote several additional hours of my time doing absolutely nothing in addition to the 1-3 days of it not being up. I love HNMs- just not spawn windows.

Ask anyone who's ever camped nidhogg in FFXI what their favorite part about it was. I don't think anyone will answer "oh, the fact that between spawn windows there's nothing to do except play isketch or stir up drama with the other LSes".

Oh your sneaky, just start new post or atleast edit when your post are still new.

So in this long winded post, the only argument this person has against me is I'm editing my posts. That's not an argument. The fact that I edit my posts means nothing relevant to the discussion- I edit my posts because I write down what's on my mind, and often I click "post" before I'm really done getting it all out. That's not a crime, nor does it detract from my argument. I did nothing sneaky. My post was still "new" when I edited it.

---

edit for one more thought: To some degree I understand why long time players of ffxi want to have things like they had in the old days. That's fine and all, but this isn't a retro game. It's something new and modern- And mechanics that require large amounts of doing nothing or really long cooldowns between activities just don't have a place in modern games- We live in a faster moving world and it is unhealthy for us to be forced to play all day long when we have lives. Now I'm not talking about casual vs hardcore. I played both FFXI and FFXIV a lot in spite of having a job/life- quite a few hours every day- that's not "casual." Casual is an hour here, an hour there, probably not even playing every single day. I don't understand why the few people who can still sit their arse in front of a computer 16 hours a day should be more entitled to have content just for them than anyone else- and if they do have it, why it should give better rewards than anyone else can get. Playing to such an unhealthy level isn't something we should be rewarding.

[Xatsh]

The few people, are more then you think. HNMS gave you filler content made it so you are not spamming the same raid/instance over and over and over all day.

People who can play 16hrs a day will still do it. IF the game cannot provide the content required to keep them happy they will also quit playing and go else were. The hardcore population has not decreased for the most part, the problem is the hardcore community has been driven out by games 100% focusing on casuals. WoW, Rift, SWToR, and such.

As for playstyle hardcore I define as anyone who plays under 25hrs a week. In my ls there were over 30 people who were pushing the 40hrs a week mark online. We want some form of content that will keep us occupied. We honestly do not care if casuals cannot do it because of RL obligations, We want content we can enjoy too. (CASUAL HAVE A TON OF CONTENT ALREADY) camping nms casuals hate in general anyways. So why try to casualize something casuals do not want. Give it to the hardcores to make that portion of the game base happy. There are no outlets in the mmo world for hardcores anymore add one in XIV and you attract a potential 5-6million sub playerbase no one else is even targeting.

AS for those who killed Fafnir, The fighting it was not fun trust me. After the 100th kill the fun is gone... hell after the 5th kill the fun is done. just like AV in XIV 1.0... yea that stoped being fun after the 25th run... the other 200+ where just a nightmare grind (Far worse then hnms because there was not even time to do anything else inbetween runs). Honestly dungeon raids are more unhealty then camping mobs. Because when you camp you do not play the game more then 30secs/30mins. You study, read, watch tv, call ppl on the phone, run to the store, cook, play with kids, and so on. HNMS with spawn windows made this possible. The thrill of fafnir is getting the claim the moment of it spawning. SO to answer you those who liked nms, the camping was really what they liked it was the whole competition of the claim and possibility of getting something good.

[Alhanelem]

The few people, are more then you think. HNMS gave you filler content made it so you are not spamming the same raid/instance over and over and over all day.

HNMs are not filler content. You couldn't do HNMs while you were waiting for something else to happen, because they would happen at set times of day. "filler content" implies it's something you can do while you're waiting to do something else. but when the "filler content" HNMs have better loot than the rest of the content, everything else is more like filler content for HNMs.

And no, the few people are not more than I think. The people who participated in HNMs were a small minority of total active players in FFXI. And then the portion of those people who actually liked the part about sitting at the camp doing nothing for hours is a small subset of those players.

All I'm against and people seem to keep glossing over this, is spawn windows. You don't need them. I don't care how many days the HNM takes to spawn- I only care if when the HNM is due to spawn, I have to go and sit there waiting for it to come for a random amount of time and then when my group doesn't win the claim, I just threw away 3-4 hours- what's worse is you couldn't just leave when you didn't win, because "they might wipe" (though rarely did they ever). So that's even more time wasted. I remember staying at a Tiamat for 7 hours waiting for another group to wipe (so including the time spent camping, we were there ALL DAY doing NOTHING most of the time). If you think that's reasonable, I want some of the drugs you're taking.

Timed pop? Sure. Fine! Spawn windows? hell the *bleep* to the no.

IF the game cannot provide the content required to keep them happy they will also quit playing and go else were.

and the game will be that much better off without them. Hopefully when they find no modern games that still have these "old school" mechanics, they'll realize how unhealthy it was.

[Jeronlmo]

No, because PvP isn't a fundamentally flawed game mechanic like spawn windows are.

Spawn windows are the only thing I'm fighting against. I want to go to the NM when I know it's going to show up, and either fight it or not. I don't want to sit and wait for 3 hours or more. Why would you have NMs with shitty spawn conditions "as an option?" That would be a pretty terrible option that pretty much nobody would end up actually taking. I dont' care if an HNM takes days to pop, as long as I don't also have to wait for hours after that spawn time is up. NMs and drops that are only rare because the number of people willing to put up with stupid design decisions is low is not a good way to make things.

Spawn. Windows. Are. Garbage. They add nothing to the experience. Why have them? 24, 48 hour pop windows are fine- It's ok If I only get to see the NM once every so often- but I shouldn't have to devote several additional hours of my time doing absolutely nothing in addition to the 1-3 days of it not being up. I love HNMs- just not spawn windows.

Ask anyone who's ever camped nidhogg in FFXI what their favorite part about it was. I don't think anyone will answer "oh, the fact that between spawn windows there's nothing to do except play isketch or stir up drama with the other LSes".

So in this long winded post, the only argument this person has against me is I'm editing my posts. That's not an argument. The fact that I edit my posts means nothing relevant to the discussion- I edit my posts because I write down what's on my mind, and often I click "post" before I'm really done getting it all out. That's not a crime, nor does it detract from my argument. I did nothing sneaky. My post was still "new" when I edited it.

---

edit for one more thought: To some degree I understand why long time players of ffxi want to have things like they had in the old days. That's fine and all, but this isn't a retro game. It's something new and modern- And mechanics that require large amounts of doing nothing or really long cooldowns between activities just don't have a place in modern games- We live in a faster moving world and it is unhealthy for us to be forced to play all day long when we have lives. Now I'm not talking about casual vs hardcore. I played both FFXI and FFXIV a lot in spite of having a job/life- quite a few hours every day- that's not "casual." Casual is an hour here, an hour there, probably not even playing every single day. I don't understand why the few people who can still sit their arse in front of a computer 16 hours a day should be more entitled to have content just for them than anyone else- and if they do have it, why it should give better rewards than anyone else can get. Playing to such an unhealthy level isn't something we should be rewarding.

Spawn "Windows" keep the window moving, because you believe it or not are not the only person playing the game, it needs to move time zones, windows also give a buffer for people who do not know the current tod to find it, like in FF11 if you searched Behemoths dominion there was a window of time every single day when you could catch a large number of people in that zone, so you would know the window is open.

You being very like a very casual player would be hurt more by no windows at all than anyone else, because I can promise you unless you play those maby 10min's that HNM is alive, you will never see it.

[Jeronlmo]

HNMs are not filler content. You couldn't do HNMs while you were waiting for something else to happen, because they would happen at set times of day. "filler content" implies it's something you can do while you're waiting to do something else. but when the "filler content" HNMs have better loot than the rest of the content, everything else is more like filler content for HNMs.

And no, the few people are not more than I think. The people who participated in HNMs were a small minority of total active players in FFXI. And then the portion of those people who actually liked the part about sitting at the camp doing nothing for hours is a small subset of those players.

All I'm against and people seem to keep glossing over this, is spawn windows. You don't need them. I don't care how many days the HNM takes to spawn- I only care if when the HNM is due to spawn, I have to go and sit there waiting for it to come for a random amount of time and then when my group doesn't win the claim, I just threw away 3-4 hours- what's worse is you couldn't just leave when you didn't win, because "they might wipe" (though rarely did they ever). So that's even more time wasted. I remember staying at a Tiamat for 7 hours waiting for another group to wipe. If you think that's reasonable, I want some of the drugs you're taking.

You will never understand that your shit ls experiences does not define the entire gaming world. HNM's were easily filler content, you like a few others who I have a hard time believing actually played FF11 seem to forget that dungeons/raids had cooldowns, generally 3 days long, for these people that you feel you can judge for playing more than you run out of things to do considering doing Einherjar/dynamis/salvage and you can even throw in leveling did not take up even 20hrs a week which is honestly low play time.

Einherjar - 2 times a week = 1hr
Dynamis - (atleast my dynamis ls) 2 times a week = 3-4hrs (in total) to full clear any given zones
Salvage - maby 30min-1hr/day

Just in events your looking at maby 12hrs, and many people in HNM's actually didnt do salvage, ill even bump it to 17hrs for you to include lvling/normal NM time.

When no events were happening you wait for ToDs to come up, I even camped normal NM's inbetween events and HNM's to fill that time. The fact that you play video games to stop playing as soon as possible is like buying a coloring book thats already filled in so you dont have to color now. MMO's should not be beatable by anyone, no matter how much you play, even LS's like excellence/NiN/Apathy/Armada held a massive amount of members who played far more than the company I kept and they never truely got close to completely winning the game.

You want these changes to make the game more beatable for you, you personally, we want the game to slow us down, to hold us back, many of us have been with SE sense the FF series fkn started and truely do not want to move to different games if a decent game could even be found that isnt taken over by casuals, we want this game to work I promise you more than you do.

[Alhanelem]

You will never understand that your shit ls experiences does not define the entire gaming world. HNM's

Ad hominium doesn't strengthen your argument. This is a personal attack and is not relevant to the argument. I had a strong LS that fought HNMs for several years. Just because you came up with lame ways to fill the time between windows doesn't mean that my LS was "shit."

Spawn "Windows" keep the window moving, because you believe it or not are not the only person playing the game,

False. This is completely unnecesary. The time taken to kill the NM keeps the window moving. You can also vary the next spawn by a small amount of time at complete random instead of having 30 minute intervals. Of course, using force pops instead means time zones are not an issue at all.

You want these changes to make the game more beatable for you

Absolutely not. I don't want to make the game more or less beatable for anyone. I want to make it so the time I spend playing this game is spent playing the game, not puttering around waiting for something to happen.

that isnt taken over by casuals,

"Casuals" (I'm not a casual and I'm not advocating to make the content casual) have every right to play this game that you do. They aren't "taking over" anything. This isn't about making the content casual. Again, it's about cutting out the time spent waiting and replacing it with actually playing the game. Whether you want to spend 1 hour a day or 10 hours a day, no content needs to be designed to where the best option as to what to do is to wait. Maybe you find waiting fun. I don't.

Lack of spawn windows doesn't make HNMs "casual." Also you ahve a pretty funny vision of what FF "is" for someone who's stayed with the series since it started. What other FFgame other than XI had you waiting arbitrary long amounts of time to play the next part of the game? Answer: None. Silly wait times and such are not a defining characteristic of the series.

This will probably be my last response to you, as you seem to have a real hate for anyone who doesn't want the same thing you want, as well as you seem to hate "casuals" for no good reason. you're attacking people and groups as the basis of your arguments.

[Jeronlmo]

False. This is completely unnecesary. The time taken to kill the NM keeps the window moving. You can also vary the next spawn by a small amount of time at complete random instead of having 30 minute intervals.

Absolutely not. I don't want to make the game more or less beatable for anyone. I want to make it so the time I spend playing this game is spent playing the game, not puttering around waiting for something to happen.

Einherjar.

that isnt taken over by casuals.

"Casuals" (I'm not a casual and I'm not advocating to make the content casual" have every right to play this game that you do. They aren't "taking over" anything.

^This is taken out of context, games can be taken over by casuals and I was obv not talking about this game (yet), and yes casuals do have every right to be there, they are actually needed in every game, which is why they are and have always been the majority.

[Xatsh]

HNMs are not filler content. You couldn't do HNMs while you were waiting for something else to happen, because they would happen at set times of day. "filler content" implies it's something you can do while you're waiting to do something else. but when the "filler content" HNMs have better loot than the rest of the content, everything else is more like filler content for HNMs.

And no, the few people are not more than I think. The people who participated in HNMs were a small minority of total active players in FFXI. And then the portion of those people who actually liked the part about sitting at the camp doing nothing for hours is a small subset of those players.

All I'm against and people seem to keep glossing over this, is spawn windows. You don't need them. I don't care how many days the HNM takes to spawn- I only care if when the HNM is due to spawn, I have to go and sit there waiting for it to come for a random amount of time and then when my group doesn't win the claim, I just threw away 3-4 hours- what's worse is you couldn't just leave when you didn't win, because "they might wipe" (though rarely did they ever). So that's even more time wasted. I remember staying at a Tiamat for 7 hours waiting for another group to wipe (so including the time spent camping, we were there ALL DAY doing NOTHING most of the time). If you think that's reasonable, I want some of the drugs you're taking.

Timed pop? Sure. Fine! Spawn windows? hell the *bleep* to the no.

and the game will be that much better off without them. Hopefully when they find no modern games that still have these "old school" mechanics, they'll realize how unhealthy it was.

FFXI was created with 5 types of mechanics

1) Instances with Cooldowns (honestly prefer these because spamming dungeons is horrible)

2) Force Spawn (Normally from crafted or drop items)

3) Campaign, besiged, and simliar events the original dynamic event in mmos.

4) Sky and Sea, which required large amount of people to do successful and it involved nms anyways

5) Hnms

1-2-3-4 almost every linkshell did it at an event time, or set time for thier linkshell (Guild) so everyone could be on at once.

Hnms were the filler content around that. If hnms were in JP time it was stuff to do at nights, if they were in Eu time it was during the day. If it fell in NA time... depening on the day they were skiped by alot. It gave people who were online all day something to do.

So yes they are filler content. Just like in XIV if there is a dungeon you cannot expect people to run it 12 noon - 12 midnight every days. People would get burn out and quit in a week.


And to comment on your last part. This mentality is what is wrong with casuals and why so many hardcores say casuals are destroying the genre. You really believe this better start looking for a new mmo cause XIV will go f2p within 1/2 a year with that mentality. Hardcores are the backbone to any mmo... the casuals are flaky and jump ship when something new and shiny is released.

This game has the potential to be great, really great. Potentially the best mmo in the genre. But I can guarantee you if this is a WoW/GW2 clone with a FF Skin. It is near 100% chance to fail. XIII will be better FF game, and WoW will be a better WoW, obviously.

[Alhanelem]

^This is taken out of context, games can be taken over by casuals and I was obv not talking about this game

Games don't get 'taken over by casuals.' They only get made for them. And so what if any particular game gets "taken over by casuals?" What's wrong with casuals? Why do you hate them? They have every right to enjoy a game that you do.

Hnms were the filler content around that.

No. All other content was filler for HNMs, if you wanted to do HNMs. You couldn't do other stuff on your own terms because out of all the HNMs, there was always at least one due to pop at any given time, and if your LS leader wanted to do it, you had to go to it. I had plans to do many of the contents you listed ruined/abandoned by an HNM being about to pop. HNM is not filler content. If you did HNMs to a dedicated level, you had little time for other content. But what did you do most of the time you were doing HNM? Wait.

This game has the potential to be great, really great. Potentially the best mmo in the genre.

I agree. And it will still be great even if it doesn't have HNMs that use a spawn window system.

HNMs do not have a broad appeal. They are only appealing to to the hardest of the hardcore, and people that feel like they have no choice but to do it because it's where the best gear is. The percentage of players that ever fight an HNM in FFXI was always and will always be very low. Something like 70% of people who play WoW don't make it to level 10. You don't seem to realize what a small minority people who crave this content are.

I love fighting HNMs. I don't love waiting for them. I don't want spawn windows to own my time spent playing FFXIV. And I played it many hours a day. I'd call myself moderately hardcore. Just because I play the game a lot doesn't mean I like an NM's pop timer controlling when I can do the other 99% of the content in the game.

[Blackpearlguy]

It was definitely filler content, as the post above me describes in great detail. I didn't even craft instead i'd camp smaller NMs for gil, why? because it was enjoyable. With that being said the argument over why you should or should not have hnms seems ridiculos when the best excuse we get is "I don't want it"

edit: spelfail