ARR and Dungeons/Istances timers.

[Arkhana]

I haven't the time to read through the 14 pages of this thread, but I did read the first few.

With regards to the removal of timers there were many comments stating people were happy as this would allow more party builds to get through the dungeons. This was in relations not to the speed run, but the 1 hour limit.

Now, many party builds can currently get through the dungeon in the 1 hour limit, of course few are used due to the bonus that lies with a 25min / 17 min victory.

But do you really expect people who are spamming a dungeon waiting for the drop they want to roll on, to settle for a 45 minute clear when they can instead get people to sit on the optimal job and run it much faster?

As an example, would you really expect a "balanced" party to run through AV rather than using the current move->flare->move->flare strategy that has been so keenly honed to provide optimal reward/time ratio?

I can understand a couple of slower runs to see the dungeon and have a look at its intricacies, but this is even how AV and CC started, people spent a long time in these dungeons learning the 5 chest requirements. But following this, no party of 8 time constricted people (real life, not in-game) is going to want to run with a less than optimal group!

With what you said, I don't know why they (understand it SE devs) wouldn't be able to just get rid of the timer so that :
- Middlecore/hardcore players would still be able to stack whatever Job is the best to complete the dungeon faster and be happy about how fast they completed it (I mean come on, it's not that difficult to look at your alarm clock or whatever at the beginning and at the end of the run and make the calculation...)
- Casual players, who have to AFK regularily (while remaining reasonable) because of whatever reason, or even newcomers to the MMO/gaming experience, would be able to enjoy the content they're undertaking, playing whatever Job they want, without the pressure of not being able to actually finish the content in time.

I really don't see the point of the timers inside the dungeons, because all you want to do, now the loot is not conditioned by the speed of completion, is to just complete the content, enjoy the setting/landscape and/or complete it as fast as possible for a sense of accomplishment (if you feel rushing through something gives you that). If the timers disappear, I don't think it'll make any difference in how people run dungeons, and Hardcore, Middlecore and Casuals will be happy.

[Nero]

Why they keep them?

You answered your own question here:

Why i can't go afk in the istance if i need?

Because you are not the only one in the instance and it can fuck up the whole group, if everyone and their mom is afk'ing while doing Stuff? I know people taking a 15 Minute smoke-break, i know people saying "afk 5 min" and disappear for 30 minutes". Sorry, but that is the reason why i always want Timer, so people dont fuck up everyone else in the group and stay on the game as long as the instance is going on.

The first thing you will see in an Instance without Timers after a couple mins being in:

- "Going to take a Smoke" 2 mins later...
- "Going to get a Drink" 2 mins later...
- "Bathroom brb" 2 mins later...
- "Hey having Guests.. will be back in 40 mins, since we dont have timers"

You guys are serious? People WILL act like that, no doubt about that. Instance has a certain amount of Time, clear it in the given time, everyone is happy. I never would go into an Instance if i have no clue about how often we have to take a break inside and the endtime would be unclear.

It is funny to see that people are posting here to get rid of the Instance-Timer are some of the People which are complaining about Time-Sinks. Get rid of Time-Sink's to create another? lol

Sorry, but i am all for Timers in an Instance.

[Dragonheart]

Have you ever played another MMO outside FFXIV and FFXI? Encounters are made exciting by the fact that they're interesting in themselves, with complex mechanics and multi-staged evolution. They don't need a crutch like a timer to be exciting. The very most most MMOs have are enrage timers for some bosses.

It's incredibly narrow-minded to think that a timer is anywhere necessary to avoid "handing things on a plate". If an encounter is challenging, it is so regardless of the timer. As a matter of fact, an overall timer limits the challenge a dev can put into each encounter, because they need to leave some room for error.

Nightmare dungeons in The Secret World (just to make an example) are a TON more complex and challenging than anything Square Enix ever designed, and they sure don't need a timer to be exciting, because timers are nothing more than a crutch to hide simplistic design.

Instanced dungeons are designed for parties to avoid running into each other and interfering with each other, and to give them some story progression. Timers have *nothing* to do with it.

Please, do set foot outside this little world, because it gives you some very skewed ideas of MMORPGs.

You are explaining exactly what i mean. (I wish, i could write better in english :P )

I haven't the time to read through the 14 pages of this thread, but I did read the first few.

With regards to the removal of timers there were many comments stating people were happy as this would allow more party builds to get through the dungeons. This was in relations not to the speed run, but the 1 hour limit.

Now, many party builds can currently get through the dungeon in the 1 hour limit, of course few are used due to the bonus that lies with a 25min / 17 min victory.

But do you really expect people who are spamming a dungeon waiting for the drop they want to roll on, to settle for a 45 minute clear when they can instead get people to sit on the optimal job and run it much faster?

As an example, would you really expect a "balanced" party to run through AV rather than using the current move->flare->move->flare strategy that has been so keenly honed to provide optimal reward/time ratio?

I can understand a couple of slower runs to see the dungeon and have a look at its intricacies, but this is even how AV and CC started, people spent a long time in these dungeons learning the 5 chest requirements. But following this, no party of 8 time constricted people (real life, not in-game) is going to want to run with a less than optimal group!

Quoting this too.

The concept of a simple 'countdown' timer is totally uninspired and annoying to me.

It may be true that it adds to the challenge in certain cases (by forcing you to accomplish something within a time constraint); but I agree with Abriael that the true challenge should be embedded into the mechanics / content of the dungeon.

And even this! The challenge should be in the encounter mechanic! Not based on a stupid timer that when ends kick outside the dungeon, so you have to rush it again... It's simply tedious and boring..

And also it shows how lazy the devs are in creating new and exciting battle mechanics...

Dev1: Ok guys we need to create new boss encounter with exciting mechanics!
Dev2: Whaaat? Meh, put a tank&spank Chimera and place a time limit so ppl will believe that it is hard!
Dev1: But..! Uhm ok.

Encounter done.

[Dragonheart]

You answered your own question here:



Because you are not the only one in the instance and it can fuck up the whole group, if everyone and their mom is afk'ing while doing Stuff? I know people taking a 15 Minute smoke-break, i know people saying "afk 5 min" and disappear for 30 minutes". Sorry, but that is the reason why i always want Timer, so people dont fuck up everyone else in the group and stay on the game as long as the instance is going on.

The first thing you will see in an Instance without Timers after a couple mins being in:

- "Going to take a Smoke" 2 mins later...
- "Going to get a Drink" 2 mins later...
- "Bathroom brb" 2 mins later...
- "Hey having Guests.. will be back in 40 mins, since we dont have timers"

You guys are serious? People WILL act like that, no doubt about that. Instance has a certain amount of Time, clear it in the given time, everyone is happy. I never would go into an Instance if i have no clue about how often we have to take a break inside and the endtime would be unclear.

It is funny to see that people are posting here to get rid of the Instance-Timer are some of the People which are complaining about Time-Sinks. Get rid of Time-Sink's to create another? lol

Sorry, but i am all for Timers in an Instance.

You're too tragic. I've played so many mmo, and in my experience it just happened sometime that someone had to go afk for a couple of minutes.

Let's suppose that someone had to go out for an unexpected emergency close to the final boss of the dungeon with POOR minute left, prolly you'll lose the dungeon cuz of timer... This is simply stupid.

But if there weren't a timer, you could simply replace the member that had to go with someone else, in guild for example, or in the case of WoW with Content finder, it will automatically find someone for you cross server and then the dungeon continue!

No stress, no offense for who had to go for an emergency.


Ohhh the same example could work if someone DC ! How many time someone Dc/ed during the final boss during a speed run, or in the middle of the dungeon??? In FFXIV (in FFXI too) this is A STRESSFULL NIGHTMARE. And don't try to say that i'm wrong. At 90% you had to go out from the dungeon and restart all over.

WITHOUT A TIMER THIS NOT HAPPENS!

[EinSoFZ]

You're too tragic. I've played so many mmo, and in my experience it just happened sometime that someone had to go afk for a couple of minutes.

Let's suppose that someone had to go out for an unexpected emergency close to the final boss of the dungeon with POOR minute left, prolly you'll lost cuz of timer...
But if there weren't a timer, you could simply replace the member that had to go with someone else, in guild for example, or in the case of WoW with Content finder, it will automatically find someone for you cross server and then the dungeon continue.

No stress, no offense for who had to go for an emergency.


Ohhh the same example could work if someone DC ! How many time someone Dc/ed during the final boss during a speed run, or in the middle of the dungeon??? In FFXIV (in FFXI too) this is A STRESSFULL NIGHTMARE. And don't try to say that i'm wrong. At 90% you had to go out from the dungeon and restart all over.

WITHOUT A TIMER THIS NOT HAPPENS!

I've actually had that happen and the game has measures. If your party clears it, you clear it. If you d/c and log back in, you're still in the instance in your party. There's still no good excuse for abolishing the timers besides arbitrary needs to afk and the belief that timers somehow take something away from the experience. Both are awful reasons.

[Dragonheart]

I've actually had that happen and the game has measures. If your party clears it, you clear it. If you d/c and log back in, you're still in the instance in your party. There's still no good excuse for abolishing the timers besides arbitrary needs to afk and the belief that timers somehow take something away from the experience. Both are awful reasons.

Ofcourse i mean for long dc, or if the member can't login for any reason.

[Nero]

Ohhh the same example could work if someone DC ! How many time someone Dc/ed during the final boss during a speed run, or in the middle of the dungeon??? In FFXIV (in FFXI too) this is A STRESSFULL NIGHTMARE. And don't try to say that i'm wrong. At 90% you had to go out from the dungeon and restart all over.

WITHOUT A TIMER THIS NOT HAPPENS!

You can not compare Dc'ing with going afk. Dc'ing is most of the time something people did not plan/want lol, while going afk is someone's choice. And yes i also played a lot of different MMO's and i could give you tons of example's where Content without Timers fucked a whole Alliance up, because people went afk without saying and when they came back they were like "oh, why is everyone dead?"... answer "Cause you fucking went afk dumbass".

Your whole Concept with switching out Member, when someone has to leave, is based an casual-gaming. No, Thanks to that.

IF someone really have to leave for an emergency, noone will be mad. Does not matter if the Instance have a Timer or not. We had that happen during the last Years a couple times and "shit happens". That has nothing to do with having timers or not, just with the fact of giving people the freedom to come and go whenever they want to, which is totally selfish.

Ofcourse i mean for long dc, or if the member can't login for any reason.

A normal Group usually use Voicechat, so they would know if someone cant log in back.

[EinSoFZ]

Ofcourse i mean for long dc, or if the member can't login for any reason.

If it were me, I'd just chalk it up to bad luck and try to do it again; not try to change an entire game mechanic to prevent it from happening. Sometimes shit happens and you just have to take the punch.

[Dragonheart]

You can not compare Dc'ing with going afk. Dc'ing is most of the time something people did not plan/want lol, while going afk is someone's choice. And yes i also played a lot of different MMO's and i could give you tons of example's where Content without Timers fucked a whole Alliance up, because people went afk without saying and when they came back they were like "oh, why is everyone dead?"... answer "Cause you fucking went afk dumbass".

Your whole Concept with switching out Member, when someone has to leave, is based an casual-gaming. No, Thanks to that.

IF someone really have to leave for an emergency, noone will be mad. Does not matter if the Instance have a Timer or not. We had that happen during the last Years a couple times and "shit happens". That has nothing to do with having timers or not, just with the fact of giving people the freedom to come and go whenever they want to, which is totally selfish.



A normal Group usually use Voicechat, so they would know if someone cant log in back.

So having a timer automatically makes FFXIV an hardcore game lol?

Almost any other gamei t's harder than FFXIV (even FFXI).
Examples? WoW hard modes, Rift, SW nightmares, GW2 explorable modes (not that hard like wow hard modes btw) , Tera hard modes (or even normal).

And all these games, don't have timer... They're all casual games following your concept?

[Nero]

So having a timer automatically makes FFXIV an hardcore game lol?

FFXIV is actually design'd for Casual Gamer, beside Ifrit X, Darnus ( Hard ) and yet you see people want it more casual and have random groups with switching out people every 5 minutes, cause someone have to pee? If people can not stay for 1 hour in a Dungeon which actually just takes aprox. 20 Minutes, then those people should not play a MMO. It is selfish indeed to say "i want to come and go whenever i want, i dont care if the group can not keep going".

Almost any other gameit's harder than FFXIV (even FFXI).
Examples? WoW hard modes, Rift, SW nightmares, GW2 explorable modes (not that hard like wow hard modes btw) , Tera hard modes (or even normal).

And all these games, don't have timer... They're all casual games following your concept?

All those Games have Timer in certain Content's, did you actually play them?

FFXI - Dynamis, Nyzul Isle, Salvage etc ( well when i quit they all had Timer )
Rift - Has timers to reach a Bonus Stage
GW2 - Dragon Timer

To name a couple Timer. If you miss it, you miss it. And GW2 is actually a casual Game.