ARR and Dungeons/Istances timers.

[Abriael]

So let's say we abolish all timers. How do proponents of removing the timers see this working out? We all just do instanced material and stay in the instance indefinitely until such that we feel we're done with it?

Proceed as if we were on a timer, just without the pressure of a timer? I'd say this just makes content more casual mode and dumbs down progression. Rather than having to time manage and proceed skillfully/carefully, we can just go very very very slowly to make sure we get through it since time is of no consequence.

To me, instance + timer go together. Remove one and the other is pretty pointless. I've yet to see anyone in favor of removing timers suggest an alternative besides the same instances only sans timers.

What is wrong again with "casual mode"?

When you go out into a cave, there isn't a big timer over your head that tells you that you must be done with it in an hour or be teleported out.

It flies in the face of immersion, exploration, fun and of the ability to enjoy all the content included in the dungeons. It also limits what the developers can do mechanics-wise, because the more complex multi-stage events the introduce, the more they conflict with the less room for error.

It's simply bad design, and only elitists would justify it, because it somehow goes against the dreaded "casuals".

[EinSoFZ]

What is wrong again with "casual mode"?

When you go out into a cave, there isn't a big timer over your head that tells you that you must be done with it in an hour or be teleported out.

It flies in the face of immersion, exploration, fun and of the ability to enjoy all the content included in the dungeons. It also limits what the developers can do mechanics-wise, because the more complex multi-stage events the introduce, the more they conflict with the less room for error.

It's simply bad design, and only elitists would justify it, because it somehow goes against the dreaded "casuals".

That's what I'm saying. The way you put things we wouldn't even need instances. Just run up to the cave and start exploring! No timer for you. So I guess you're saying you'd prefer open dungeons then? That's what it sounds like. Also, you and too many other players think "inside" the box. With timers you can introduce a ton of mechanics and we already see that.

At what time ON THE CLOCK does Garuda 2hr? This determined by the clock. In a dungeon situation, they could alter it such that "x" thing occurs at "x" time on the clock. How can you not find sudden changes, both fun and challenging? It can be done in so many creative ways that having timers can give players new ways of playing the game. Split the group up at a certain time on the clock and force them to battle monsters until they regroup. Things like that really get me going because the challenge is actually exciting. It's really not an elitist attitude to want some actual challenge with pressure.

Casual mode is boring. Your way, we'd all just get our swords, take our time getting to a big boss, kill the big boss, divide the loot and whee that's it. Oh, we'd get to explore along the way - I guess. I don't really think it's enjoying the content because you can run up to see a rock you'd normally just bypass in favor of finishing up on time.

Not bad design in my opinion. If doesn't hand you what you want on a plate. Unlimited time kind of does that whether you'll admit it or not. Many instanced things in FFXIV would become piss easy and it's not like FFXIV is hard as is now. Not sure how they hold for ARR.

[Abriael]

That's what I'm saying. The way you put things we wouldn't even need instances. Just run up to the cave and start exploring! No timer for you. So I guess you're saying you'd prefer open dungeons then? That's what it sounds like. Also, you and too many other players think "inside" the box. With timers you can introduce a ton of mechanics and we already see that.

At what time ON THE CLOCK does Garuda 2hr? This determined by the clock. In a dungeon situation, they could alter it such that "x" thing occurs at "x" time on the clock. How can you not find sudden changes, both fun and challenging? It can be done in so many creative ways that having timers can give players new ways of playing the game. Split the group up at a certain time on the clock and force them to battle monsters until they regroup. Things like that really get me going because the challenge is actually exciting. It's really not an elitist attitude to want some actual challenge with pressure.

Casual mode is boring. Your way, we'd all just get our swords, take our time getting to a big boss, kill the big boss, divide the loot and whee that's it. Oh, we'd get to explore along the way - I guess. I don't really think it's enjoying the content because you can run up to see a rock you'd normally just bypass in favor of finishing up on time.

Not bad design in my opinion. If doesn't hand you what you want on a plate. Unlimited time kind of does that whether you'll admit it or not. Many instanced things in FFXIV would become piss easy and it's not like FFXIV is hard as is now. Not sure how they hold for ARR.

Have you ever played another MMO outside FFXIV and FFXI? Encounters are made exciting by the fact that they're interesting in themselves, with complex mechanics and multi-staged evolution. They don't need a crutch like a timer to be exciting. The very most most MMOs have are enrage timers for some bosses.

It's incredibly narrow-minded to think that a timer is anywhere necessary to avoid "handing things on a plate". If an encounter is challenging, it is so regardless of the timer. As a matter of fact, an overall timer limits the challenge a dev can put into each encounter, because they need to leave some room for error.

Nightmare dungeons in The Secret World (just to make an example) are a TON more complex and challenging than anything Square Enix ever designed, and they sure don't need a timer to be exciting, because timers are nothing more than a crutch to hide simplistic design.

Instanced dungeons are designed for parties to avoid running into each other and interfering with each other, and to give them some story progression. Timers have *nothing* to do with it.

Please, do set foot outside this little world, because it gives you some very skewed ideas of MMORPGs.

[Totorixiii]

I'm hoping at 2.0 ARR, dungeon has no limit timer on it at all! I find it very uncomfortable having a timer of only 30 minute or so...

If timers are not going away completely for dungeons, at least extend the duration to 2 hours!

[EinSoFZ]

Have you ever played another MMO outside FFXIV and FFXI? Encounters are made exciting by the fact that they're interesting in themselves, with complex mechanics and multi-staged evolution. They don't need a crutch like a timer to be exciting. The very most most MMOs have are enrage timers for some bosses.

It's incredibly narrow-minded to think that a timer is anywhere necessary to avoid "handing things on a plate". If an encounter is challenging, it is so regardless of the timer. As a matter of fact, an overall timer limits the challenge a dev can put into each encounter, because they need to leave some room for error.

Nightmare dungeons in The Secret World (just to make an example) are a TON more complex and challenging than anything Square Enix ever designed, and they sure don't need a timer to be exciting, because timers are nothing more than a crutch.

Instanced dungeons are designed for parties to avoid running into each other and interfering with each other, and to give them some story progression. Timers have *nothing* to do with it.

Please, do set foot outside this little world, because it gives you some very skewed ideas of MMORPGs.

Oh geez, accusing players of not having experienced other MMO's just because we're actually aware of the game we're currently playing. To answer your question, i have extensive experience with other MMO's and know that there are limitations for doing things either way. What I can tell you is that SE has chosen since FFXI to go a certain route with their MMO's apparently.

I think instanced content is good and that timers make it more fun and challenging. In no way do I say that any game that doesn't use those format is doing it wrong or bad. You're kind of assuming that when I'm actually just talking about the game we're playing. I'm not really considering other games. Personally, I don't think an open dungeon scheme would work us here. How would we get anything done? Parties avoiding each other is good. Although, a bunch of parties running AV or CC at the same time would be bonkers.

We have to work within the format we're given. I say if we are being given instances, then have some timers with them else it's just chicken scratch to complete. Don't forget it's only a few minutes to re-enter the dungeons. What are you crying for? That's reality and it's not hard to just go back in. I think timers have a lot to do with how instances are played in FFXIV. Obviously players agree since strategy incorporates effectiveness in clearing in a timely fashion. I can't understand how some people enjoy just whacking on stuff for hours to call it accomplishment.

Let me ask again. Are you saying we should just have all of our instances without the timers? Is that what your ideal would be? An encounter can be inherently challenging and the addition of a timer can alter this as well to another degree. Who is being narrow minded here? You speak of what things don't need, but offer little to suggest what they do need. From what I can gather we just need 100% leisure time to take care of business according to you.

[Shougun]

I'm hoping at 2.0 ARR, dungeon has no limit timer on it at all! I find it very uncomfortable having a timer of only 30 minute or so...

If timers are not going away completely for dungeons, at least extend the duration to 2 hours!

For the 30 minute content, have you ever ran out of time? Think they could use an elastic timer for the one boss no dungeon instances (would be fun to see some variation in that elastic timer as well). Dungeons depending on type and style can have unique timers set up - like ants increasing in spawn to attack you for CC. Dungeons arent called dungeons because you chill in them as a fun social hub. Although I've been lucky to have excellent groups who if I needed to afk 5 minutes could still win I can imagine others have not been the same.

I am sure we can find a happy medium of specialized timers to create a system to please more people on both sides.



For the longer dungeons it would be interesting to see camps/setup camps placed in them where you could take a respite without fear. Good place for buffs/strategy talk/water and bathroom/ and can be a new checkpoint so you dont start at the damn entrance if you die lol.

[Abriael]

Oh geez, accusing players of not having experienced other MMO's just because we're actually aware of the game we're currently playing. To answer your question, i have extensive experience with other MMO's and know that there are limitations for doing things either way. What I can tell you is that SE has chosen since FFXI to go a certain route with their MMO's apparently.

Forgive me, but it doesn't seem so, otherwise you'd know that timers are nowhere necessary for encounters to be challenging, quite the opposite. Final Fantasy XI and XIV are nowhere near the top end of the spectrum in terms of dungeon/raid challenge.

They are, indeed, near the top end of the spectrum in terms of dungeon annoyance and clunkyness, but that has nothing to do with challenge.

I think instanced content is good and that timers make it more fun and challenging. In no way do I say that any game that doesn't use those format is doing it wrong or bad. You're kind of assuming that when I'm actually just talking about the game we're playing. I'm not really considering other games. Personally, I don't think an open dungeon scheme would work us here. How would we get anything done? Parties avoiding each other is good. Although, a bunch of parties running AV or CC at the same time would be bonkers.

Never argued for open dungeons. We can have instances. They just need not be timed.

We have to work within the format we're given.

Not really, we don't. It's our duty to give feedback when something lowers the quality of the game.

I say if we are being given instances, then have some timers with them else it's just chicken scratch to complete. Don't forget it's only a few minutes to re-enter the dungeons. What are you crying for? That's reality and it's not hard to just go back in. I think timers have a lot to do with how instances are played in FFXIV. Obviously players agree since strategy incorporates effectiveness in clearing in a timely fashion. I can't understand how some people enjoy just whacking on stuff for hours to call it accomplishment.

because that "whacking on stuff" can be a challenge and an accomplishment in itself if the content isn't deathly flat and dull in itself. You know, good and creative design.

Let me ask again. Are you saying we should just have all of our instances without the timers? Is that what your ideal would be? An encounter can be inherently challenging and the addition of a timer can alter this as well to another degree. Who is being narrow minded here? You speak of what things don't need, but offer little to suggest what they do need. From what I can gather we just need 100% leisure time to take care of business according to you.

You are being narrow minded, because you don't understand that in order to make the encounters accessible, developers need to narrow down the complexity of those encounters when there's an overall timer involved.

You demand challenge, and that's the funniest thing I heard, because actual challenge (which doesn't match the need to rush) is actually hampered by overall timers.

You're bound to the idea that timers make things more "challenging", and that seems to come from the fact that you simply aren't used to actually challenging content, to be completely honest.

So yes, overall timers need to go.

[Recycler]

The concept of a simple 'countdown' timer is totally uninspired and annoying to me.

It may be true that it adds to the challenge in certain cases (by forcing you to accomplish something within a time constraint); but I agree with Abriael that the true challenge should be embedded into the mechanics / content of the dungeon.

However, "timers" in the sense of that a dungeon is only accessible in a certain natural timeframe (say, the lower levels of a dungeon are flooded most times, but sometimes not) are interesting (blending with the game environment) and I'd like those to be implemented in some dungeons.

[Junpei]

I haven't the time to read through the 14 pages of this thread, but I did read the first few.

With regards to the removal of timers there were many comments stating people were happy as this would allow more party builds to get through the dungeons. This was in relations not to the speed run, but the 1 hour limit.

Now, many party builds can currently get through the dungeon in the 1 hour limit, of course few are used due to the bonus that lies with a 25min / 17 min victory.

But do you really expect people who are spamming a dungeon waiting for the drop they want to roll on, to settle for a 45 minute clear when they can instead get people to sit on the optimal job and run it much faster?

As an example, would you really expect a "balanced" party to run through AV rather than using the current move->flare->move->flare strategy that has been so keenly honed to provide optimal reward/time ratio?

I can understand a couple of slower runs to see the dungeon and have a look at its intricacies, but this is even how AV and CC started, people spent a long time in these dungeons learning the 5 chest requirements. But following this, no party of 8 time constricted people (real life, not in-game) is going to want to run with a less than optimal group!

[Deakka]

Assuming we'll get more packs of mobs that will involve crowd control (moreso than sleepga, to which Yoshi-P said he was hoping to implement), the move > flare > move > flare strat will be useless. In addition, melee will be able to burst with repeated AoE's on par with BLM (no more timers on ws's means a few back to back Aura Pulses/Rain of Death's, enough for any situation that calls for burst AoE). Those alone pretty much guarantee the current situation of "Hmmm, only 3 BLM's on tonight, guess no CC/AV" will be done for good.