Lets Talk - Red Mage

[KoujiGeki]

I also like the idea of Dual Casting.
I think it would work well with the Critical Hit WS -> Dual Cast mechanic for Red Mage.

The fact that Red Mage has weaker spells, and can't boost them like BLM and WHM, could be outweighed by the fact that you could Dual Cast.

Same with damage - it'll suck. Critical Damage will suck less.

Imagine a Frontline Melee that debuffs and Dual Casts Cure on the Tank. Oh, the Tank is ok? Make that Dual Casts Thunder

But how do you suppose that Rdm can out Crit dmg a Drg which is already right now the King of Crit ws dmg? Blindside added to that aloso gives them a larger edge over Rdm unless rdm could get it too.

[Shougun]

Lets move back into physical magic XD

I think as fencer being the base class you can see things were they attack once every few and then release a torrent of attacks. As well as some great self buffs like temporarily put parry through the roof, or increase attack speed, or maybe even enfeebling chance (then give all his WS enfeebles).

With redmage you would then augment the fencer with en spells. So when the fencer does that super fast torrent you have add magic damage to each hit as well now. Perhaps chain spell takes cooldown off and lets spells cost be used from TP or Mana, priority on mana. Red is like fire, and making a red mage a torrent would keep it true to front line madness.

Another thing you could do to chain spell is make all spells more effective but require melee activation. Cure chain spell causing red mage to attack and cure at the same time (cure would have to be aoe to reduce targeting confusion).

If you suggest to give him magic spells unrelated to attacks then he is just going to be a hybrid back stage class - people will only let you do with your class with what your class does best. No one is going to let a mage tank. At some point you actually have to force design aspects that make him good at a particular thing.

[moriandrio]

So lets resume

RDM should be a powerfull melee DD with Crit WS, Dualcast with low tier elemental spells and enfeebles and cures.

The fact he has all these magic skills would mean you have to nerf his melee potency or it will never be balanced.

[Judge_Xero]

But how do you suppose that Rdm can out Crit dmg a Drg which is already right now the King of Crit ws dmg? Blindside added to that aloso gives them a larger edge over Rdm unless rdm could get it too.

High Crit Rate gear/Naturally High Crit WS(in Combo)
I don't mean the Critical Damage should be high, just the Crit Rate. This gives a focus on both Melee and Magic for Red Mage, if a Critical Melee Weapon Skill will Trigger Dual Cast

The idea behind the Mechanic of a Critical hit, was that it triggered Dual Cast. The same way, Warrior will Parry an Attack, and Monk will Evade an Attack for some of their WS's.

RDM shouldn't be able to straight out DPS Dragoon or Monk, and it shouldn't be able to out DPS BLM in straight magic, or out Heal WHM.

The combination of both Melee and Magic is ideal.

So, Critical Hits on Weapon Skills - triggers the ability to Dual Cast a Spell, Cure, Thunder, Fire,Earth, Aero etc. (should 2nd Teir Spells be included? or is that OP?)

So Base stats could be Primary: INT Secondary: DEX - with another main focus of Matk, Crit Rate, Crit Damage

Edited: Maybe Dual Cast should also have the benefit of only generating hate on the initial spell, not both

Example: (Lvl 50 Mob)
Slash(120) -> Lunge "Combo: Slash - "Increased Critical Rate when executed from Behind" (Crit!!: 470)
-> Activates Dual Cast (Thunder lights up) -> Dual Cast Thunder (650 Each, total 1300)
MP Cost 110 Enmity Generated 1240 -> Total Damage 1890

Important Points for Dual Cast(This Way) 2nd Spell will be Instant. Reduces Cooldown to 0

Thoughts?

[KoujiGeki]

Something that could make it a fair strong DD is Dual Casting a spell with and En spell which could be cool if you could make it work. a mechanic that only happens if you pair a magic spell with and En spell.

i will make it that you cant dual cast 2 en spells right now, especial since mnks couldn't.

Lets say we are fighting Miser. I Dual Cast Fire with Enfire. The first hit will be like a blindside hit a Crit Damage of Fire. You normal Crit Dmg + if you actually Critical using a fire spell. and then every hit after is just the normal enfire hits. The normal damage + the additional effect of enfire.

This way they are not over power cause like i said dual casted spells have longer recast. how does that sound this way they can be viable frontline jobs?

[Ladon]

All the ideas again are shifting to making a red mage a DD class. This isn't going to work because:

1) In order to be viable DD they will have to do as much damage as the other DD classes. It really don't matter how you dress it up by making it half magic damage and half physical damage. The end result is unless then are doing as much damage as the other DDs they will never be allowed into a party. Nobody wants a DD class that does less damage than other DD classes.

2) If they make the class as capable a DD as DRG MNK and BLM then all other aspects of the class will need to be removed. No buffs, no debuffs, no cures. The reason is all the other DDs will be passed over in favor of a RDM that does just as much damage while providing better utility than the other DDs offer.

3) The only possible solution to this is making them average at DD and average at utility. I think most already agree this simply does not work in a MMO. A specialization is required or they will always be passed over by classes that are better specialized in a specific task.

So we're back at my point. Making RDM into a DD class simply is not viable. It cannot be shoehorned into the game without either making them either overpowered or undesired.

[SwordCoheir]

So lets resume

RDM should be a powerfull melee DD with Crit WS, Dualcast with low tier elemental spells and enfeebles and cures.

The fact he has all these magic skills would mean you have to nerf his melee potency or it will never be balanced.

I think that's the general idea by most of us, the focus would be magical damage but done through their weapons like en-spells or magical weaponskills rather than just plainly casting spells. Consider it a more consistent magic attacker, without having to rest every 2-3 minutes from draining their mp pools they're overall physical abilities are lacking but maintain some degree of need to function.

[moriandrio]

I think that's the general idea by most of us, the focus would be magical damage but done through their weapons like en-spells or magical weaponskills rather than just plainly casting spells. Consider it a more consistent magic attacker, without having to rest every 2-3 minutes from draining their mp pools they're overall physical abilities are lacking but maintain some degree of need to function.

But you still have the problem you gonna have to nerf the dmg compared with other DDs like MNK or DRG cause RDM would have way to many Utilitys. So in the End RDM might do 70% dmg of an fulltime DD and has buff/debuff/heal.

Having a powerfull frontline DD with all this magic tools will never work cause you can't balance it without nerfing dmg. And there we go same thing happend in FFXI and same will happen here cause you can't implement an overpowerd RDM and it will end that he gonna be average at dmg/heal/support

[SwordCoheir]

But you still have the problem you gonna have to nerf the dmg compared with other DDs like MNK or DRG cause RDM would have way to many Utilitys. So in the End RDM might do 70% dmg of an fulltime DD and has buff/debuff/heal.

Having a powerfull frontline DD with all this magic tools will never work cause you can't balance it without nerfing dmg. And there we go same thing happend in FFXI and same will happen here cause you can't implement an overpowerd RDM and it will end that he gonna be average at dmg/heal/support

I think most people are realistically looking at BRD level or a little above BRD/WAR/PLD level DD, which usually equates to a little over half of that of BLMs, DRGs, and MNKs usual damage (least from my experience), I think the only time RDM should/would stand out in such instances around the dedicated DD's damage would be mobs that are weak to magical damage or when there's a definable elemental weakness to exploit, but that's depending largely on the type of route SE wants to take with RDM.

Personally, I say to hell about having a little bit of everything. I don't want RDM to turn into some halfass BRD that can barely nuke with cross class abilities. Frankly, drop the whole buff/debuffing thing since buffing is BRD's thing and debuffing is going to SMN, and just make it all about melee, magic damage, and give it like a single healing spell that's slightly weaker than Holy Succor just so it can't turn into a mainheal and sure as hell don't let it stack with sacred prisim.

Sorry some people are still hung up on FFXI's bastardized and poorly implemented vision of RDM.

[Haibel]

I think most people are realistically looking at BRD level or a little above BRD/WAR/PLD level DD, which usually equates to a little over half of that of BLMs, DRGs, and MNKs usual damage (least from my experience), I think the only time RDM should/would stand out in such instances around the dedicated DD's damage would be mobs that are weak to magical damage or when there's a definable elemental weakness to exploit, but that's depending largely on the type of route SE wants to take with RDM.

Personally, I say to hell about having a little bit of everything. I don't want RDM to turn into some halfass BRD that can barely nuke with cross class abilities. Frankly, drop the whole buff/debuffing thing since buffing is BRD's thing and debuffing is going to SMN, and just make it all about melee, magic damage, and give it like a single healing spell that's slightly weaker than Holy Succor just so it can't turn into a mainheal and sure as hell don't let it stack with sacred prisim.

Sorry some people are still hung up on FFXI's bastardized and poorly implemented vision of RDM.

My bulid on the first page is all those things. I just didn't factor in parry weapon skills which is easy enough to change.