Lets Talk - Red Mage

[fusional]

I want to see a red mage that's radically different than xi. I want it to be a fast attacking rapier class that uses enhancing magic like en-spells, haste, and offensive magic combos off of weapon skills.

It can also have debuffs like slow, bio, gravity and other debuffs attached to weapon skills. But I want them to be rapier based above everything. Red mages do not belong in the back

"i want to see an overpowered frontline blm" is all i'm getting from this

Ikkenoe has a point. how do you people plan to balance this class if it works the way you want it to?

They could always push into the whole fast cast thing again, I think that was a really cool perk to RDM that kinda reflected back to the dual cast of FFV.

yeah, fast cast was good. though i remember reading some interview a while back where yoshi stated there won't be any haste-like mechanics in the game? but maybe (hopefully) he's changed his mind or was just talking about 1.0

[Warlock]

You want RDM? lvl up Gladiator get full red cobalt set equip stone from CNJ and thunder from THM and BAM!

[Azurus]

"i want to see an overpowered frontline blm" is all i'm getting from this

Ikkenoe has a point. how do you people plan to balance this class if it works the way you want it to?



yeah, fast cast was good. though i remember reading some interview a while back where yoshi stated there won't be any haste-like mechanics in the game? but maybe (hopefully) he's changed his mind or was just talking about 1.0

Um the black magic won't be near as strong as a blm? It's just weaker magic that can be woven in to rapier combos? It can be a front line enhancement specialist? Monk like medium armor but not have the evasion monk has?

You guys really can't think outside the box can you? And why ate we even thinking about PvP? Its not going to be major in this game at all. He'll rift managed to balance their new harbinger class (frontline mage type) why can't SE? Especially with an iconic class like redmage? You naysayers oversimplify everything and don't bother thinking about how it COULD work.

[fusional]

Um the black magic won't be near as strong as a blm? It's just weaker magic that can be woven in to rapier combos? It can be a front line enhancement specialist? Monk like medium armor but not have the evasion monk has?

You guys really can't think outside the box can you? And why ate we even thinking about PvP? Its not going to be major in this game at all. He'll rift managed to balance their new harbinger class (frontline mage type) why can't SE? Especially with an iconic class like redmage? You naysayers oversimplify everything and don't bother thinking about how it COULD work.

don't worry about pvp? why? because *you* don't care for it? don't be childish.

and okay, so you want to have debuffs/CC and perfectly strong melee at the cost of weaker magic, and you still don't see how this would be overpowered? list any debuffs melee currently have which actually have a major impact on the game. i'll wait. in the meantime let's talk about how many situations monk's 'evasion' ever matters in pve. so... yeah. taking that away from rdm isn't exactly hurting it.

you can cry about 'thinking outside the box' all you want but that still won't solve balance issues. see, in marketing they have tons of idea guys and one or two strategy guys who tell the idea guys whether or not that idea is good/possible or stupid/impossible in practice. i'm a strategy guy, and i'm trying to explain to you why your idea in its current form is simply unrealistic. it's not feasible. so i'm asking you to tweak it. and your response, rather than to answer a question i've posed, is to try taking the "pfffttt ur dum cant think outside da box" route? classy.

but here, let me help.

so we have a melee job which specializes in single target dps, excelling in short fights and against magic-weak foes. that's monk.

we have a melee job which does great single target and great aoe dps, excelling in longer battles. that's dragoon.

we have a melee job which does mediocre single target and good-to-great aoe dps, less squishy than other melee and excelling as an offtank. that's warrior.

we have a melee job which does poor damage but has high survivability and high threat. that's paladin.

we have a ranged job which does decent single target and good aoe dps, but makes up for this with range and support skills. bard.

we have a ranged job which does excellent single target and aoe dps as magic, but is limited by mp. black mage.

and we have a ranged job which does mediocre single target and aoe dps, but is a strong healer/buffer. white mage.

do you understand how class balance works yet? do you see how each of these classes do something slightly different from the others, specializing in different roles and excelling in different situations? so tell me where you see red mage fitting in with this picture while retaining balance in relation to the other classes and also having its own identity.

i'm all ears.

because about the only things i can see working are:

A. make it like xi with mediocre melee and magic damage, but strong buff/debuff/support abilities
B. give it fair single target damage with good aoe damage and fair buff/debuff abilities
C. give it good single target damage with mediocre aoe damage and fair buff/debuff abilities

you can't have 2 out of 3 being strong or the class breaks balance. unless you want the buffs/debuffs to be weak. but even then you still can't have it matching blm in magic damage or mnk/drg in melee damage- because it would still have things those classes do not.

understand better now?

so how do you plan on resolving that problem?

tip: try thinking of this from a disinterested, objective third party perspective rather than a "i like red mage and i want it to be like so and so" perspective

[yukikaze_yanagi]

nothing forbid a class mechanism where you can cast only when meleeing,or other downside, it's not talking about "oh look, i can nuke afar while i'm more armored then a paladin".
The most oblius example of this mechanic is the war priest in warhammer: to cast he need to build energy, which you build only meleeing. and it's a healer

[Teuciont]

Do we really need another RDM thread?

[fusional]

Do we really need another RDM thread?

no, we don't. we could actually do without at least 70% of the threads that get posted, because they're all something that's already been talked to death.

people in this forum just really enjoy seeing the sight of their own words.

[stanleyyoung]

Do we really need another RDM thread?

yeah ppl will always make these threads and they always end up the same way, few ideas here and their, etc that are repeated over and over and over...over again! I stopped reading these threads and i mistakenly looked at this.

I have said it before and others have agreed. RDM on paper, in theory, personal opinions, fantasy,dreams etc will always work and seem very good to have in game. But in reality (especially in MMO'S) RDM will never work (offline games yes and maybe co op too), i say this because once the community finds 1,2,3 maybe 4 things RDM excels at ppl will cause the Job/class whatever to become a bot bitch in whatever it can do good. And its pretty clear what happened in XI and their is actual proof why RDM is a Dream job/class what it comes down to the bottom line. period! given all the issues SE will have to deal with RDM over time it being under powered at one point and over powered the next etc etc.

But i would be stunned & impressed if SE can pull it off with ARR and even if RDM makes it and the class/job actually be balanced and very viable, not a just a............

[Ingolf]

I sincerely hope they don't go down the buffing route with RDM. I've seen what happens in MMO's when they add too many support. Generally one is preferred because having two support starts to lower the DPS potential of the party in general.

So that means we'll either be using BRD or RDM.

And I see BRD as the support class right now. We don't need another Corsair.

[Azurus]

don't worry about pvp? why? because *you* don't care for it? don't be childish.

and okay, so you want to have debuffs/CC and perfectly strong melee at the cost of weaker magic, and you still don't see how this would be overpowered? list any debuffs melee currently have which actually have a major impact on the game. i'll wait. in the meantime let's talk about how many situations monk's 'evasion' ever matters in pve. so... yeah. taking that away from rdm isn't exactly hurting it.

you can cry about 'thinking outside the box' all you want but that still won't solve balance issues. see, in marketing they have tons of idea guys and one or two strategy guys who tell the idea guys whether or not that idea is good/possible or stupid/impossible in practice. i'm a strategy guy, and i'm trying to explain to you why your idea in its current form is simply unrealistic. it's not feasible. so i'm asking you to tweak it. and your response, rather than to answer a question i've posed, is to try taking the "pfffttt ur dum cant think outside da box" route? classy.

but here, let me help.

so we have a melee job which specializes in single target dps, excelling in short fights and against magic-weak foes. that's monk.

we have a melee job which does great single target and great aoe dps, excelling in longer battles. that's dragoon.

we have a melee job which does mediocre single target and good-to-great aoe dps, less squishy than other melee and excelling as an offtank. that's warrior.

we have a melee job which does poor damage but has high survivability and high threat. that's paladin.

we have a ranged job which does decent single target and good aoe dps, but makes up for this with range and support skills. bard.

we have a ranged job which does excellent single target and aoe dps as magic, but is limited by mp. black mage.

and we have a ranged job which does mediocre single target and aoe dps, but is a strong healer/buffer. white mage.

do you understand how class balance works yet? do you see how each of these classes do something slightly different from the others, specializing in different roles and excelling in different situations? so tell me where you see red mage fitting in with this picture while retaining balance in relation to the other classes and also having its own identity.

i'm all ears.

because about the only things i can see working are:

A. make it like xi with mediocre melee and magic damage, but strong buff/debuff/support abilities
B. give it fair single target damage with good aoe damage and fair buff/debuff abilities
C. give it good single target damage with mediocre aoe damage and fair buff/debuff abilities

you can't have 2 out of 3 being strong or the class breaks balance. unless you want the buffs/debuffs to be weak. but even then you still can't have it matching blm in magic damage or mnk/drg in melee damage- because it would still have things those classes do not.

understand better now?

so how do you plan on resolving that problem?

tip: try thinking of this from a disinterested, objective third party perspective rather than a "i like red mage and i want it to be like so and so" perspective

Ok your coming off highly aggressive so if you want a fight I'm out it's not important enough to me. However since you don't seem to understand my thoughts ( no fault of yours I'm on a smart phone at work and having difficulty getting out my ideas due to a funky interface problem) I will repo d to you with my actual detailed ideas as soon as I can get to a computer. Bottom line though is the class can be done.