Magian Trials

[Antipika]

The problem with constant upgrades is that players joining late will always be behind, because they will have to catch up everything you already done.

That's not how MMOs are supposed to be if they want to remain appealing to new comers. Every now and then, itemization progression should be "soft reset", either by raising the level cap, either by releasing new tier of gear (and making the previous tier/or something equivalent to the previous tier easily obtainable.).

That way, someone starting will have a chance to catch up and won't be discouraged.

It still drives me crazy in XIV that all that time my and my ls spent last October was a 100% waste of time.

Getting gear in a MMO is a waste of time then.

[Elexia]

The problem with constant upgrades is that players joining late will always be behind, because they will have to catch up everything you already done.

That's not how MMOs are supposed to be

Did you know? A player who joins an MMO in 2007 compared to joining in 2004 with a lot more people will be behind and have to play catch up?

Every now and then, itemization progression should be "soft reset", either by raising the level cap, either by releasing new tier of gear (and making the previous tier/or something equivalent to the previous tier easily obtainable.).

This means they have to play more catch up either on content itself or trying to rush to catch up to the level cap in order to get the new gear.

So to reiterate:

That's not how MMOs are supposed to be

Anyone who joins an MMO long after someone else will have to play catch up no matter what. This is how every MMO has been and will continue to be. Did you even utilize the system the OP is talking about? You'd realize it's basically the same thing other MMOs does when they throw out gear for the next, this way however you don't throw it out, you just upgrade it through various paths for various situations.

A Beastmaster will go the path of upgrading dual axes with VIT and Pet -Physical Damage Taken whereas a Blue Mage will upgrade a DEX or STR sword for Chant du Cygne, therefore the purpose of MT was more to allow you to create the weapons you want for certain reasons (most go with the strongest option, Empyrean aka Relic Version 3) or they go with an all purpose one (usually STR/Attack, Evasion or Occasionally Attack 3-4+ times.)

[Antipika]

...

You don't play catch up when you join late most of MMOs in the market. You just level normally and get quickly back to an acceptable gear level enabling you to do latest content, without going through the same grind veteran players went.

Start WoW today, you won't have to grind through BC>WOTLK the same way veterans players did. The best epic weapon of the previous expansion is usually not even better than an average blue of the current expansion (or even green sometime).

Top players aren't literately years ahead gear wise. They are only ahead until the next tier of equip/expansion arrives and normalize everything back again. Constant progression forces top players to continually play if they want to maintain themselves at the top. While casuals/new players aren't left that far behind.

By having a weapon that you upgrade the same way as some trials (kill X times the same monster to get to the next level), you are only creating a gap that is mostly linear between veterans and new players. Progression shouldn't be linear over the years.

The latest content should be hard to progress through, the old content should be quick to do. XI was probably one of the worse MMO regarding this. Especially pre-Abyssea.

[stanleyyoung]

i would actually like something like the trials or the same thing for ffxiv. i really hate to see gear from DH, primals, soon to be CC and AV become obsolete when new content comes along. ppl have put alot of time and effort into obtaining these weapons & gear and to see them just go poof or used for seals fodder as soon as something new is here sucks.

from a business stand point having players able to uprgade weapons & gear to keep up with time is a timesink thus more $$$ in SE pockets and keeps players happy. cant really see why they wouldn;t do something like it.

[Firon]

You don't play catch up when you join late most of MMOs in the market. You just level normally and get quickly back to an acceptable gear level enabling you to do latest content, without going through the same grind veteran players went.

Start WoW today, you won't have to grind through BC>WOTLK the same way veterans players did. The best epic weapon of the previous expansion is usually not even better than an average blue of the current expansion (or even green sometime).

Top players aren't literately years ahead gear wise. They are only ahead until the next tier of equip/expansion arrives and normalize everything back again. Constant progression forces top players to continually play if they want to maintain themselves at the top. While casuals/new players aren't left that far behind.

By having a weapon that you upgrade the same way as some trials (kill X times the same monster to get to the next level), you are only creating a gap that is mostly linear between veterans and new players. Progression shouldn't be linear over the years.

The latest content should be hard to progress through, the old content should be quick to do. XI was probably one of the worse MMO regarding this. Especially pre-Abyssea.

I wanna like this 100x i had many friend who quit cause they could not get the gear they wanted cause most ppl was done with old content like sky so they could not max upgrade their classes in the fashion they wanted.

[Yucie]

You don't play catch up when you join late most of MMOs in the market. You just level normally and get quickly back to an acceptable gear level enabling you to do latest content, without going through the same grind veteran players went.

Start WoW today, you won't have to grind through BC>WOTLK the same way veterans players did. The best epic weapon of the previous expansion is usually not even better than an average blue of the current expansion (or even green sometime).

Top players aren't literately years ahead gear wise. They are only ahead until the next tier of equip/expansion arrives and normalize everything back again. Constant progression forces top players to continually play if they want to maintain themselves at the top. While casuals/new players aren't left that far behind.

By having a weapon that you upgrade the same way as some trials (kill X times the same monster to get to the next level), you are only creating a gap that is mostly linear between veterans and new players. Progression shouldn't be linear over the years.

The latest content should be hard to progress through, the old content should be quick to do. XI was probably one of the worse MMO regarding this. Especially pre-Abyssea.

WoW is entirely different. Each time WoW introduces a new patch with new dungeons, they annihilate any gear you acquired previously and negate the gear's existence by introducing new sets much sooner than they actually have to; so basically, WoW results in players constantly grinding through dungeons to get top-tier gear for the duration of that patch, before the next patch destroys all the hard work and effort you put forth, just to have you do it again, and again.

And even so, a new player that just joined said MMO will still have to grind to cap, and work to get gear; that's playing catch-up. What MMO gets rid of that step by giving you an instantly level-capped character with moderate equips?

MMOs will have catch up, one way or another, whether it's leveling or getting gear, or both.

[Elexia]

WoW is entirely different. Each time WoW introduces a new patch with new dungeons, they annihilate any gear you acquired previously and negate the gear's existence by introducing new sets much sooner than they actually have to; so basically, WoW results in players constantly grinding through dungeons to get top-tier gear for the duration of that patch, before the next patch destroys all the hard work and effort you put forth, just to have you do it again, and again.

And even so, a new player that just joined said MMO will still have to grind to cap, and work to get gear; that's playing catch-up. What MMO gets rid of that step by giving you an instantly level-capped character with moderate equips?

MMOs will have catch up, one way or another, whether it's leveling or getting gear, or both.

Antipika just fights against anything and tries to say "bad things" only happened in FFXI.

[Antipika]

WoW is entirely different. Each time WoW introduces a new patch with new dungeons, they annihilate any gear you acquired previously and negate the gear's existence by introducing new sets much sooner than they actually have to; so basically, WoW results in players constantly grinding through dungeons to get top-tier gear for the duration of that patch, before the next patch destroys all the hard work and effort you put forth, just to have you do it again, and again.

That's just what I said, with different words.

And even so, a new player that just joined said MMO will still have to grind to cap, and work to get gear; that's playing catch-up. What MMO gets rid of that step by giving you an instantly level-capped character with moderate equips?

MMOs will have catch up, one way or another, whether it's leveling or getting gear, or both.

Well, World of Warcraft. That's called scroll of resurrection. Ok you're not capped, just 80. That still makes the grind rather fast.

I never said that you will be 100% instantly leveled and geared like veteran players, this is a MMO after all... I just said that it is moderately quick and I don't call that "playing catch up".

But I think really good gear should be lasting (2-3 yrs min), and if a new player stops playing for awhile it should take them awhile to get the gear.

WoW is a crazy extreme... there is no reward for players to do content now, why spend the time and work to get something if it will be complete crap in a few months. Why spend the months and month gearing your ls, when a newby in 1yr can join and get better gear in 1 week just from doing leveling quest.

That's basically the FF XI pre-Abyssea way of thinking. Drop rate are awful, it takes years to get gear, but the counter part is : your gear doesn't get obsolete quickly and even when a new BiS item is available, usually it's only couple items you need to change (or it's a minor upgrade).

And that's what made me leave when level cap increase was announced after "working" (well it's supposed to be a game and be fun) toward getting geared at 75. Doing Salvage every day, 365 days a year, no exception. Dynamis/Limbus/Ein, every 72 hours, always. 100% attendance. Etc. When you really work hard for your gear, yes you don't want it to become obsolete.

This system have its limit however. It discourages players who left to come back and it discourages new players to join. And that's a big problem for MMOs editors nowadays. We cannot just take XI and say "Well it worked ok with XI, there was new players even if the game was 6-7 years old (talking pre-Aby). The market isn't the same now.

If XI would have stayed the way it was before, without any nerf (meaning you still struggle to just clear things like CoP), the gap between veteran players and new players would be too large and no one could join today unless getting completely carried through the content by several veteran players.

The "modern MMO" approach is just different. Everything is tier'd, progression is highly vertical. You get your gear relatively quick (usually 4~6 months top), but the counter part is, your gear is only good until the next tier comes out.

It's a matter of taste, faster or slower gearing cycle. (Right now XIV has been stagnant, so we cannot even talk about any cycle ) We will see what Yoshida will do with ARR, but since he said that ARR should see a level cap increase after the first big patch, I'd say we can expect the game to take a vertical progression approach. How fast? Depends how fast SE can create content.

[Yucie]

That's just what I said, with different words.

Well, World of Warcraft. That's called scroll of resurrection. Ok you're not capped, just 80. That still makes the grind rather fast.

I never said that you will be 100% instantly leveled and geared like veteran players, this is a MMO after all... I just said that it is moderately quick and I don't call that "playing catch up".

At one point, Blizzard was giving out this:
- Buy the game now, get a free upgrade to Cataclysm, a free 80 or 85 of your choice, and already geared with moderate equipment, all for pretty much nothing.

Being geared like a veteran player from such a thing is far beside the point - the point is that WoW is so ridiculously easymode with all of the stupid offers for free this or that Blizzard gives, there's literally no grind, aside from 85-90.. or whatever Kung-Fu Pandaria made the new cap.