Will DRG and PLD still be next to useless in 2.0?

[TimonLoon]

PLD is currently complete and utter trash when compared to WAR for the following reason.

- Cannot block WS but you can parry them. WAR wins.
- Cannot mitigate incoming damage from enemy weapon skills, but WAR can with Feather Foot and Foresight.
- Blocking does not reduce anywhere near as much damage as parrying. WAR wins.
- WAR does more damage than PLD. More damage/more hate. WAR wins.
- WAR has AoE damage. PLD does not (good bye Circle Slash). WAR wins.
- Not many moves that reduce/virtually nullify attacks. Aegis Boon vs. Feather Foot/Foresight. WAR wins.
- On a straight hit... An equally well equipped WAR takes less damage than a PLD. WAR wins.
- PLD HP is still far lower than WAR. A PLD needs to gear hard on HP while a WAR can just focus on damage and Enmity. WAR wins.
- PLD has AoE flash to get hate on multiple targets. Makes kiting Moogles easier. WAR needs to rely on having TP and Collusion -> Flare. PLD wins.
- PLD can cure itself. WAR can also cure itself except it doesn't need MP (Rampage/Second Wind/Bloodbath). WAR wins.

The only encounter in the game where PLD is better is Moogle Mog. And even that's arguable. PLD is in need of some serious buffs going into 2.0. The main problem with PLD is that it excels at virtually nothing. For almost every situation; WAR is better and deals more damage.

DRG... Is currently 2nd on single target DPS behind PUG. I personally think they're fine. But if I had to nitpick... they have low durability due to their low HP and only cure being Second Wind. Life Surge doesn't count because there's very little to no reason to use it over Power Surge.

[REDace0]

- Cannot block WS but you can parry them. WAR wins.
- Cannot mitigate incoming damage from enemy weapon skills, but WAR can with Feather Foot and Foresight.

This is actually false, isn't it? I'm pretty sure I've used Divine Veil and Aegis Boon to reduce or eliminate damage from WS. I've even heard of people using Aegis Boon to nullify 100-Tonze Swing, but I haven't tried that myself.

I think it has to be, because without blocking PLD should be taking much more damage than WAR, but in my experience as WHM it's always the opposite. WAR needs more cures. You can even leave a PLD completely on their own for 30s or so and if they have Hallowed Ground available they'll be fine.

[Dawiichan]

PLD is currently complete and utter trash when compared to WAR for the following reason.

- Cannot block WS but you can parry them. WAR wins.
That's with Foresight. If you parry without foresight, PLDs have much better potential on mitigating dmg. PLD have aegis boon, which not only mitigates damage completely, but can also heal.
- Cannot mitigate incoming damage from enemy weapon skills, but WAR can with Feather Foot and Foresight.
If you can evade it with Foresight and Feather Foot, PLD can block it with divine veil and Aegis Boon. This doesn't make any sense.
- Blocking does not reduce anywhere near as much damage as parrying. WAR wins.
Blocking can actually reduce more, since you know, you can increase the amount you block unlike parrying. You can also block more than you can parry so you reduce even more there.
- WAR does more damage than PLD. More damage/more hate. WAR wins.
PLD can keep hate other ways. Those ways letting the WHM have it easier. Not only that but the difference in single target damage between a PLD and a WAR isn't really that far off. So in fight like Miser where you don't need a WHM, PLD can get a big chunk of hate just by healing.
- WAR has AoE damage. PLD does not (good bye Circle Slash). WAR wins.
First real upside to it so far that is currently in game that war has.
- Not many moves that reduce/virtually nullify attacks. Aegis Boon vs. Feather Foot/Foresight. WAR wins.
What? You must not do much content, cause every whm will tell you that a PLD was easier to heal than a WAR. Divine Veil can be up 1/3 of the time, and aegis boon can be used in between. They also have a stronger version of sentinel than WAR's and can also heal themselves/others.
- On a straight hit... An equally well equipped WAR takes less damage than a PLD. WAR wins.
Best thing I've read so far. This completely depends on the hit since a PLD can probably mitigate something like Ifrit's 1k hit auto attacks way more than a WAR.
- PLD HP is still far lower than WAR. A PLD needs to gear hard on HP while a WAR can just focus on damage and Enmity. WAR wins.
PLD doesn't need to gear hard on HP whatsoever. Any PLD that you've seen doing this is definitely doing it wrong.
- PLD has AoE flash to get hate on multiple targets. Makes kiting Moogles easier. WAR needs to rely on having TP and Collusion -> Flare. PLD wins.
- PLD can cure itself. WAR can also cure itself except it doesn't need MP (Rampage/Second Wind/Bloodbath). WAR wins.
PLD can use Bloodbath and can heal more consistently than a WAR. Pretty sure War doesn't win when it comes to healing. Specially when you parse ifrit extreme, and you notice how much healing a PLD can actually do.

The only encounter in the game where PLD is better is Moogle Mog. And even that's arguable. PLD is in need of some serious buffs going into 2.0. The main problem with PLD is that it excels at virtually nothing. For almost every situation; WAR is better and deals more damage.

DRG... Is currently 2nd on single target DPS behind PUG. I personally think they're fine. But if I had to nitpick... they have low durability due to their low HP and only cure being Second Wind. Life Surge doesn't count because there's very little to no reason to use it over Power Surge.

Where did you even get this information? By the way, It's definitely safe to say that for DRG's lack of single target damage compared to MNK, they definitely make up for it in their AoE damage.

[TimonLoon]

Where did you even get this information? By the way, It's definitely safe to say that for DRG's lack of single target damage compared to MNK, they definitely make up for it in their AoE damage.

Block since it's inception in this game has never procced on a Weapon Skill. I would love to be proven wrong but I've never seen it happen.

Also this information is based on the fact that block rates get significantly lower the higher the monster's level is. It was made a little better a few patches ago but it's still fairly low (using Vintage Kite Shield+1).

I'm not saying that PLD's can't keep hate as well as WARs. I'm saying that since WARs can deal more damage they contribute more to the overall goal while doing their job. Which in the end gives them the edge.

Divine Veil doesn't help much when most mobs are spamming Weapon Skills. This goes back to the first point.

Whether or not PLD doesn't have to gear up HP is debatable. What isn't is the fact that PLD's HP is too low.

PLDs can indeed us Bloodbath but unfortunately they rarely do enough damage with their WS to get a good drain off. There are too few mobs where PLD gets good damage in (Spirits Within not included). Aside from Riot Blade and Spirits Within their WS are pretty weak. I'm sure you can drain on Riot Blade but can you drain on Spirits Within <- Honest question, I haven't tried it.

Now don't get me wrong. As I said before, I love PLD and want so bad to go back to using it over WAR but there aren't many situations where that's better. I'm hoping 2.0 changes that.

[Dawiichan]

Block since it's inception in this game has never procced on a Weapon Skill. I would love to be proven wrong but I've never seen it happen.
You must be pointing your back at the boss then, since Block is easier to proc than parry.

Also this information is based on the fact that block rates get significantly lower the higher the monster's level is. It was made a little better a few patches ago but it's still fairly low (using Vintage Kite Shield+1).
(Block rate is trash on a PLD. You can force block so often that Block will trump Block rate at any instance when playing PLD.)

I'm not saying that PLD's can't keep hate as well as WARs. I'm saying that since WARs can deal more damage they contribute more to the overall goal while doing their job. Which in the end gives them the edge.
PLD can technically deal near as much damage to a Boss as warrior, and if you need two WHMs on WAR tanking, PLD can easily do it with 1, which is why they can have better damage potential.

Divine Veil doesn't help much when most mobs are spamming Weapon Skills. This goes back to the first point.
Divine veil will block whenever something is on your front. If your paladin is smart, they can easily position themselves. If anything you can use Divine Veil during cover as well.

Whether or not PLD doesn't have to gear up HP is debatable. What isn't is the fact that PLD's HP is too low.
That's the thing though, it's not too low. If your paladin can't tank with 3.8k-4k HP, there is something wrong with either the WHM or the PLD.

PLDs can indeed us Bloodbath but unfortunately they rarely do enough damage with their WS to get a good drain off. There are too few mobs where PLD gets good damage in (Spirits Within not included). Aside from Riot Blade and Spirits Within their WS are pretty weak. I'm sure you can drain on Riot Blade but can you drain on Spirits Within <- Honest question, I haven't tried it.
You almost always use bloodbath on Spirits within because Spirits within usually does more damage than God's Bane.

Now don't get me wrong. As I said before, I love PLD and want so bad to go back to using it over WAR but there aren't many situations where that's better. I'm hoping 2.0 changes that.

You haven't been in enough situations where PLD can do just as well, if not better (Garuda/Ifrit Extreme/Hamlet), than WAR.

Yeah I guess that could be the case. I'd like to actually do first hand testing parsing DRG vs my BLM.

Parsing almost every Garuda hard run I've done, I can tell you that a DRG does as much dmg as a BLM. There is however a few reasons why parse won't usually show this. First of all DRGs should be helping out with the plumes, while BLMs are practically worthless against the plumes. I mean, a MNK can easily out damage a BLM at garuda only because they can stay on her full time. So when you have monks to replace the BLMs, and then two dragoons to replace the two bards in that video, not only do the clones go down very fast but garuda can go down faster since DRG obviously does better damage than a bard, and MNKs can out damage black mages in most instances.

Pretty much, it currently stands that BLM is the easy way out of things right now. If you want even more efficiency, BLMs will not always be the way to go.

[TimonLoon]

You haven't been in enough situations where PLD can do just as well, if not better (Garuda/Ifrit Extreme/Hamlet), than WAR.

You're right Block does proc more than parry but you're missing the point of that statement. WAR can almost completely nullify a 1500-2000 damage hit on command if they time their Foresight/Feather Foot usage right (or even with a random parry proc). This is just not possible with PLD. Over the long run it's entirely possible that the PLD takes less damage than the WAR but the WAR is evading the hits that count (the ones that can down you).

That is completely dependent on the group. Unfortunately your experience/luck with getting decent people together doesn't apply to everyone that plays the game.

Again you are ignoring the big point. Blocks don't proc on WS. Having the mob in front of you w/ Divine Veil means nothing to 100-Tonze/10-Tonze/<insert WS here>. Parries do proc on WS and can practically be done on command with Foresight. Honestly I don't even see your point here with the whole positioning comment and facing the mob... If the mob isn't in front of you as a PLD or WAR you're not doing your job so that doesn't apply.

You're right. If a PLD can't tank with 3.8k HP then they are doing something wrong. But how did that PLD get to 3.8k+ from the norm. See? The norm doesn't apply to you because you have a decent group. The norm is a full AF PLD with some decent accessories. That's about 3400-3500 after full party buff. Any simple ass WAR is standing around with 4k after that buff. It makes a big difference.

Ahh... I assumed it wouldn't work since it was magic damage. FFXI mentality. I'll definitely start using that now.

Definitely agree with you here. I did my first Hamlet run on WAR and switched to PLD right after. Far better experience... I haven't done Ifrit Extreme and I've only gotten Garuda down to 10% with PUGs. I need to find a group to down shit with. -_-;

[Dawiichan]

You're right Block does proc more than parry but you're missing the point of that statement. WAR can almost completely nullify a 1500-2000 damage hit on command if they time their Foresight/Feather Foot usage right (or even with a random parry proc). This is just not possible with PLD. Over the long run it's entirely possible that the PLD takes less damage than the WAR but the WAR is evading the hits that count (the ones that can down you).
First of all, you do know that when you parry on foresight you only take 1 damage. However if you have a random parry proc you take more damage than a random block proc. Second of all, PLD can just as easily nullify a 1500-2k damage hit on command with aegis boon since it causes you to take 0 damage and also heal for 703.

That is completely dependent on the group. Unfortunately your experience/luck with getting decent people together doesn't apply to everyone that plays the game.

Again you are ignoring the big point. Blocks don't proc on WS. Having the mob in front of you w/ Divine Veil means nothing to 100-Tonze/10-Tonze/<insert WS here>. Parries do proc on WS and can practically be done on command with Foresight. Honestly I don't even see your point here with the whole positioning comment and facing the mob... If the mob isn't in front of you as a PLD or WAR you're not doing your job so that doesn't apply.
Block does proc on WS though. Have you never blocked against 100-tonze/10-tonze swing? Anything that a Warrior can parry and evade, a PLD can block. Not only that, PLD can also heal when they use Aegis boon, letting them not only completely nullify it, but heal at the same time. Divine veil also works on those skills as well.

You're right. If a PLD can't tank with 3.8k HP then they are doing something wrong. But how did that PLD get to 3.8k+ from the norm. See? The norm doesn't apply to you because you have a decent group. The norm is a full AF PLD with some decent accessories. That's about 3400-3500 after full party buff. Any simple ass WAR is standing around with 4k after that buff. It makes a big difference.
If War is easier for starters to tank in, good for them. Though if you can't get cobalt gear and single meld it, that's quite worrying.

Ahh... I assumed it wouldn't work since it was magic damage. FFXI mentality. I'll definitely start using that now.
Spirits Within isn't magic damage. The skill states "Delivers a melee attack at close range."

Definitely agree with you here. I did my first Hamlet run on WAR and switched to PLD right after. Far better experience... I haven't done Ifrit Extreme and I've only gotten Garuda down to 10% with PUGs. I need to find a group to down shit with. -_-;

Towards the MNK vs. DRG. DRG tends to do the same damage in ifrit (extreme) due to the fact that their aoe damage to the nails is far superior. However towards damage on ifrit itself, monk is higher. This is why their damage usually equal about the same. The damage drg makes on the nails balances out the dmg mnk does on ifrit. This is why imo having both in the fight made it a lot easier.

[TimonLoon]

Towards the MNK vs. DRG. DRG tends to do the same damage in ifrit (extreme) due to the fact that their aoe damage to the nails is far superior. However towards damage on ifrit itself, monk is higher. This is why their damage usually equal about the same. The damage drg makes on the nails balances out the dmg mnk does on ifrit. This is why imo having both in the fight made it a lot easier.

If you can show me a screenshot of Block proccing on a WS I will never bring that up again and you'll have proven me wrong. Please do this. Don't worry, I'll wait.

That doesn't change the point, just goes to show that to play PLD you need to invest a lot more than for WAR. Aka easier. You're investing just to keep up with the other guy even though you're both wearing AF. There is your problem. Not everyone is hardcore or lucky with gear drops.

I stand corrected on Spirits Within.

[Aceofspades]

PLD is currently complete and utter trash when compared to WAR for the following reason.

- Cannot block WS but you can parry them. WAR wins.
- Cannot mitigate incoming damage from enemy weapon skills, but WAR can with Feather Foot and Foresight.
- Blocking does not reduce anywhere near as much damage as parrying. WAR wins.
- WAR does more damage than PLD. More damage/more hate. WAR wins.
- WAR has AoE damage. PLD does not (good bye Circle Slash). WAR wins.
- Not many moves that reduce/virtually nullify attacks. Aegis Boon vs. Feather Foot/Foresight. WAR wins.
- On a straight hit... An equally well equipped WAR takes less damage than a PLD. WAR wins.
- PLD HP is still far lower than WAR. A PLD needs to gear hard on HP while a WAR can just focus on damage and Enmity. WAR wins.
- PLD has AoE flash to get hate on multiple targets. Makes kiting Moogles easier. WAR needs to rely on having TP and Collusion -> Flare. PLD wins.
- PLD can cure itself. WAR can also cure itself except it doesn't need MP (Rampage/Second Wind/Bloodbath). WAR wins.

The only encounter in the game where PLD is better is Moogle Mog. And even that's arguable. PLD is in need of some serious buffs going into 2.0. The main problem with PLD is that it excels at virtually nothing. For almost every situation; WAR is better and deals more damage.

DRG... Is currently 2nd on single target DPS behind PUG. I personally think they're fine. But if I had to nitpick... they have low durability due to their low HP and only cure being Second Wind. Life Surge doesn't count because there's very little to no reason to use it over Power Surge.

well if no one else is gona do it......

-before you even start compairing block and parry, compaired to block, parry is a completly random and rare event even with pary increasing stats and abilities. PLD wins with a 60-70% garenteed block rate.

-fyi we can block weapon skills and if we do it with ageious boon, we get realy nice hp for it too ..... PLD wins

-War dose do more damage then PLD but dose not pull more hate for all the damage they do, in fact enmity + gear works better for pld and we get enmity boosts for mind as well, along with the strongest enmity builders in the game. PLD wins

- funny story about aoe hate controll, only off tanks and PL tanks need aoe hate controll, would make sense to give that to a lesser tank that can clean up trash mobs well, oh wait, BLMs do that too... Instead us poor PLDs get the honor of ACUTALLY tanking mobs like bosses and such having a much easier time with it too. PLD WINS

-this next one just proves your an idiot and or troll. Stone skin, ageious boon, divine veil, rampart, sentinel and the only move in the game that negates magic and physical damage , hollowed ground. combine that with the normal deffensive boosts pld gets over war and once again ..... PLD WINS

- next point your wrong for two reasons, 1 an equally equiped war will do shit for damage , 2 an equally equiped war will ALWAYS take more damage, sheild adds deffensive stats and traits, and PLD gets vit boost where war dose not.. PLD WINS

- IN same exact gear, PLD has roughly 500 less hp then WAR, but mitigates roughly 10% more damage then war, lets do the math if avg hp for pld is 3400 a PLD would have to take less then 2 full hits to make up for the HP advantage war has... not many fights in wich I only get hit twice.... PLD WINS

-you prove yourself wrong in this next point, WAR has stronger aoe hate controll, as posted per you, hense aoe hate controll gose to WAR especially on a fight where your kiteing , NOT tanking, this one gose to WAR, WAR WINS

- TRUE STORY , PLD also gets blood bath and we more then make up for second wind with ageious boon lets not forget being able to regen mp and hp with blocks.... after all when taking less damage then a war you dont often need self heals, PLD WINS

And lastly your last statment about pld sums up your entire knowledge of tanking on the game wich is nothing. PLD EXCELS AT TANKING , put up your sword and axe and help the game a bit.

[Doho]

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