Stop the Grind-to-the-Endgame madness!

[Jynx]

So why are FFXI romanticists insistent in forcing such a thing? The answer is personal preference. My issue against them is - they're not looking for alternatives. They want leveling slow to the point of exhaustion to others

Sweeping generalizations FTW!

Same could be said of people who don't want to look at a longer leveling curve as a alternative they are so bent on their own opinion! Dear GOD WHAT HAVE WE DONE!

As for your "Arbitrary" number system I'd love to hear how it's arbitrary, I assume you would be all for the removal of levels from the game entirely if this is the point. A point many people have brought up due to the fact leveling itself is pretty much a worthless objective in the game.

[Hyrist]

I am not "demanding" any changes to content I haven't tried. I am giving my (admittedly strong) opinion on issues that I care about in game-play, and against which tendency seems to go of late, not only in this game, but in the industry at large.

I'd like to first mention that I love relying to your post. I read them and they're very thoughtful and constructive to boost. That said, you my friend are a rare gem in which your specific tone is not reflected in others in your 'camp' so to speak. Many would chose to defend their arguments by defacing another credibility somehow, yet you keep your composure and provide a thoughtful and respectful reply.

I'm smiling right now in delight because of it. Thank you.

I'm also in a state of suspense. It's only I don't believe for a second silence will contribute positively in the areas that still can be changed. And later could be too late. I'm writing, yes, but I don't believe I'm doing so heavy-handedly, nor too brashly.

This said, I do spectulate that we are too late, at this point, for high thought level discussion as to the progression systems in 2.0. At least as far in the manners of general approaches and concepts.

At this point in development, given our indicated launch date coming at the beginning of 2013, the team should be beyond the conception stage and into optimization. So the ideal is in place and we need to be more aware of the formulae by which SE is running experience and progression by, before we can ask for modifications. Otherwise, we're asking them to rethink the entire formula a third time.

The rest of this thoughtful post, Hyrist, I very much agree with.

Thank you.

It's just that word "Faster" that scares me, and I think it's best if I, by saying so, I contribute a bit to prick the community to express their thoughts on the issue and, in general, to illuminate us all. Your replies, are part of this, and for that I, personally, I'm thankful.

This game's development company has taken the very unusual path of rebuilding it with a very determined and proactive community nested in its inside. It cannot now go back and ignore it's bidding. This community's opinion, for good or bad, will imprint the game; I want it to be for good, and I just happen to think that requires respectful, thoughtful and intelligent expression. People like you (and--it's to be hoped--I). I'm not trying to win an argument, or to have my opinion be the driving guideline, but rather to help (sometimes clumsily, I'll admit) steer the community into expressing civilly and articulately what its wants might be.

R

Tis a noble adjective with one major problem. We cannot assume that every individual on these boards are adults, or are able to be respectful for whatever reason. That said, finding those who do entertain a respectful discourse is part of the pleasures in any community.

More on the subject of the word "Faster". I will have to admit, for the sake of clarity, that I too became somewhat starteled that Yoshida chose such wording for the leveling process.

However beyond the fear I sought reason. Yoshida is withholding information about 2.0 and we know as much, but he also likes to drop clues. The numbers in our serveys were pretty clear that the majority of the players were fairly content with the leveling pace. So in order to make the logical leap from 'It's ok where we are.' to 'we probably should make it faster' likely lies within that black box of information we do not have.

If I am permitted to speculate, I believe it means we're having 'more' added. Be that a higher level cap or simply more classes to level. To keep the same time amount to reach similar goals, that means the general pacing would have to increase. This may be a misinterpretation of the data given by the players, mind you, but it would make sense if that was the conclusion made.

If this is the case, then we do have time to tell them to dial it back some. We'll know in the Beta for certain.

Another approach to the idea term of 'faster' may be use time. For example, on average, through the course to fifty, it takes me about an hour per level. I beleive that is an ideal course, as getting level 50 would take about fifty hours of playtime. At ten hours a week, that would mean five weeks.

Of course time would be distracted doing quests, raid runs with friends, and what have you.

If the process of doing raids, questing, etc, also leveled me, then I'm no longer separation my time just for leveling, and by proxy, leveling is faster. This would be closer to the ideal as now players are getting rewarded for adventuring and being in a part of the rich content during levels that we were asking for, but we would have to see the matter first hand before we could speculate that the amount of experience gathered this way is too much, or if the quests and objectives seem deep enough to merit its rewards.

Overall I caution against panic in a situation that we know so little, but rather compose our thoughts to the point where we have our ideals refined, yet flexible enough to get specific with the Developers once we have the Beta in our hands, both positively and constructively.

I am keeping my ideals open enough for me to be able to say "Wow, I'm fifty already?" And feel good about it, rather than disappointed. That's probably Yoshida's end goal: to have you so wrapped up in enjoying the things you do, that you don't notice that you're grinding while doing it. It's up to us to tweak it so that response works for the widest number of people - and I caution against presuming one's self in the role of being a majority. To achieve that, we have to assume a juxtaposition - (and I don't mean everyone's favorite Podcast Tarutaru. )

[RemnantWolf]

I completely agree. I have seen how having different things to do and having different milestones can change how people play the game.

Currently along with FFXIV I am playing Runes of Magic because my brother plays and wanted me to join with him. It's combat is incredibly bland, it's crafting sucks compared to FFXIV and to this day I have not been made to care enough about the lore to know the name of the world everything takes place in. But I stay for the community.

End game really doesn't exist in that game, just a new instance to conquer and a new world to see. And I see a huge difference in how people act in this game from FFXIV where endgame is pretty much all there is as far as milestones go.

I am about to hit level 55 where as cap is somewhere in the 80s and people are going out of there way to help me. Helping me get good armor, good weapons and help me learn how to stat my gear (that is the one system that out shines FFXIV, the gear stating gear system is insane and makes the materia system look tiny) because 55 is where putting the new stats on my gear becomes a worthwhile endeavor, and effectively increases my stats 50-100%

This is great because as I keep going I will get this treatment a lot, as I reach new milestones they will take me to new places, helping me get the armors and weapons that are considered a rite of passage, and teaching me how to lead someone else like me through these places when I am strong enough to do so myself.

As much as I know the community will hate me for saying it, it reminds me of FFXI. Sure I will admit that the grind wasn't always fun, but the rewards were the best. I still remember getting my chocobo, traveling to a different city, unlocking my Dragoon Job. I never really cared for end game in FFXI, never got to it, my xbox and profile crashed before I got to see probably 75% of the game, but I was happy where I was, and why not? I had a Chocobo, I had a Wyvern following me, and I could travel all sorts of interesting places with them.

FFXI Players were wrong to say that the grind is what made FFXI fun. It was those milestones that made it what it is. But at the same time, maybe they were right. If it was easy to level up, like it is here I may not have cared about getting those things, not as much at least. So I'm with this guy, make leveling up slower, make it much more meaningful but don't just make it slower, give us things to do, accomplishments to achieve. No one would care if they were slow to level if they were too busy fulfilling a role within the game world, within their Grand and Private Companies, and grabbing some awesome loot along the way. If you say Lv. 15 gets you a chocobo, no one cares about Lv. 50 anymore, they want that chocobo, or that house, or the chance to get that crazy new sword.

Milestones become rites of passage, and rites of passage glue a community together. People will help you achieve things, and in turn you will help the next group.

[Hyrist]

The full philosophical argument against this view is perhaps not within the scope of a forum like this one, but the questioning of it definitely fits here.

Let's not yield so easily to the tyranny of the majority, and the rule of the minimum common denominator, which is inherent complexity-phobic and unaware of quality. And let's remember that the truly great democracies of the world institutionalize opposition to the majority rule, and subject said rule to checks and balances.

R

There are two very pointiest responses to this that we need to address very quickly before your approach is spread without proper context, lest it be misconstruted.

In the concept of McDonalds vs Healthy food, etc. We are talking matters of health care vs capitalistic pursuit - in which there is a clear moral right to weigh against the concept of convenience.

But we are talking about the field of recreation, a subjective art, at best. And the only true measurement of success really is the number of people who enjoy it. In which case this is a matter of 'majority rules' in spite of other examples you would compare with other factors to consider.

To draw an example parallel, this would be like comparing Coke to say Pepsi or some other off-brand rather than trying to compare it to water.


The second major point that must be addressed immediately here is that your statement implies that the because the minority and the majority opinions conflict, that the solution must be exclusive to one or the other, as if neither camp could be satisfied while any amount of the other is.

This is simply not true.

While there is a fringe of players who enjoy a specific type of content and will be inflexible to the point of quitting over it, the ideal solution is to appeal to as broad as an audiance as possible - this includes more hardcore perspectives such as enjoying a longer grind.

But as a minority, it must be stated that the concept of compromise may come greater on that part than on the part of the majority, because the end goal is commercial success. It really is the only way you can truly measure this kind of success objectively.

[Elexia]

The second major point that must be addressed immediately here is that your statement implies that the because the minority and the majority opinions conflict, that the solution must be exclusive to one or the other, as if neither camp could be satisfied while any amount of the other is.

This is simply not true.

Yet basically stating 'you FFXI (insert) are wrong and should realize it's just full of flawed designs and therefore shouldn't be suggesting anything from that outdated period even though WoW released 2 years after it and therfore is just as outdated so you should stop forcing your views on us, FFXI (insert)."

You do realize that's essentially the conflict being stated, right?

[Jynx]

The second major point that must be addressed immediately here is that your statement implies that the because the minority and the majority opinions conflict, that the solution must be exclusive to one or the other, as if neither camp could be satisfied while any amount of the other is.

To say there is no middle ground would be foolish but at the end of the day a wise man once said.

"If you chase two rabbits both will escape."

You can try to appeal to as broad of a audience as possible but in the end you will alienate another segment of the market. There is no such thing as a game that appeals to everyone and obviously the proponents of one side of the fence is going to want things to mainly swing in their favor.

I may be in a minority segment of the market, it's easy to see on paper what segment of the market is ripe for the picking but that's it on paper. FFXI as "Grindfest terribad" that it was still had hundreds of thousands of active subscribers, many of them were long term die-hard fans that were with the game from release to pretty much it's end of times when SE started to spread itself across all demographics with the level cap raise and all of it's casual friendly systems that alienated long time players.

You hear people all the time saying "I played WoW for a couple of months it was fun but it's over now" because it's what WoW is, it's a game designed around mass consumption of easy content with bits of challenge strewn about to appease it's hardcore audience. The customer retention numbers must be mind boggling to see how many accounts are created and never get past that free trial level cap.

Commercial success of a single product will only take you so far. I'll be interested to see what Blizzard does with Titan to differentiate it from WoW. Diablo III has been a harsh lesson for Blizzard as well, despite breaking PC sales records the game itself is hemoraging players because of design choices that made the game more "Convient" to play and took out alot of the long term goals that people played Diablo I-II for years to accomplish.

At the end of the day what I'm trying to point out is that while the "Minority" may not seem like the best market to appeal to, at times they are the guys who save your bacon when things are hard up. Your fans that hold you up under a shoddy foundation while you work to lay the ground work of a more stable game system. Leaving the fans out to dry has shown to have disastrous effect on many companies looking at the 3 large consol hardware manufacturers you can see this as plain as day.

Sony's PS3 launched at a staggering 600.00 price point with a array of issues but their fans from the PS2 held the system aloft long enough for it to start out the gate and be only a scant behind Microsoft in terms of hardware sales. Nintendo completly took their fans for granted and while the Wii sold like hot-cakes to the market the fans themselves had little motivation to purchase the system. Now that the Wii-U has been announced it's been almost panned in the scene with a giant "Meh" and it has yet to show that the mass market is even chomping at the bit to get at it.

There is no way to please everyone, and SE obviously are the ones who have to make the choice about who they aim for. Many comapnies have tried to appeal to everyone and failed misserably you can't please everyone it's a fact of life. You can give everyone a sack of money and there would still be people who spit in your face and say they don't want your charity.

SE needs to strike a balance that is for sure, but one way or another someone is going to get the favorable side of the development team while the other is left to wither on the vine thrown a few bones here and there to keep interest alive.

[Hyrist]

Yet basically stating 'you FFXI (insert) are wrong and should realize it's just full of flawed designs and therefore shouldn't be suggesting anything from that outdated period even though WoW released 2 years after it and therfore is just as outdated so you should stop forcing your views on us, FFXI (insert)."

You do realize that's essentially the conflict being stated, right?

Actually, that is the conflict you, personally, are inferring from it.

Referring to an outside opinion. Reminds us that FFXI was not, in fact, highly regarded among even Final Fantasy fans.

Keeping the concepts objective means not blindly championing a niche title in strict defiance of far more successful ones.

You do realize that 500k subscribers in this day and age would be considered a failure, even by single player standards. If you were to approach your own favorites objectively, you have to acknowledge that the game had many flaws that kept it from growing. We must then address these flaws going forward if we're to adapt any mechanics from FFXI into FFXIV.

You'd rather deny these flaws completely and target me for stating them, even though the very game you praise acknowledge it and has continually attempted to adjust it until it ultimately made it arguably easier to get to level 50 than it is here in FFXIV.

Put bluntly: get off your high horse about XI. It's not as good of a game as you praise it to be, and if we're to take ANYTHING from that game it should be with a very healthy dose of caution, as FFXIV really can't afford bleeding out a large number of players for the sake of a few people's nostalgia.

And before you reference them incorrectly. Crystal Tower and Golden Saucer are additive concepts, locations of reference, not combat and progression mechanics. A closer correlation would be perhaps adding Balista.

Ideally, FFXIV should find it's own mechanical equilibrium as far as class progression.

[Avirex]

Ideally, FFXIV should find it's own mechanical equilibrium as far as class progression.

^ Best statment yet. I was a huge fan of XI but I don't want XIV to turn into a high graphic version of XI. I want it to be it's own game. In keeping with the topic, i do agree that the end game rat race seems old but then again it's only that way to players who don't stop and enjoy the grind to 50.

i enjoy the journey not the destination.

[Jynx]

I really doubt anyone pulling from their experience from XI want this game to be XI-2. Then again if we don't quote something with WoW level subscribers it seems we are going to get pointed in another direction becasue what we thought was fun obviously didn't sell well enough.

Man CoD must be the best game evar.

[Hyrist]

SE needs to strike a balance that is for sure, but one way or another someone is going to get the favorable side of the development team while the other is left to wither on the vine thrown a few bones here and there to keep interest alive.

At this point I should probably reference the fact that Yoshida is aware of this issue and is going to, attempt at least, to keep his whole team on to continually add and develop interesting content for the wide group. We'll have to see if he keeps to his word, but I get the idea of being a tad bit afraid that your favorite job/event/gameplay aspect may get neglected. That's a common fear to have in an MMO.