Stop the Grind-to-the-Endgame madness!

[Hyrist]

I would love to know why everyone is so against a slower leveling pace akin to FFXI. Correct me if I'm wrong but FFXI still has a much larger population and imo FFXIV would have a population similar if they had simply taken the "Archaic" Mechanics that the new ADHD players don't want and put them into this game. I know that SE was going for a larger player-base but realistically they could at least get the amount of subs that FFXI had or close to if they had not gone the ADHD route for this game and you can argue that its not current MMO mechanics but i think what most of us wanted was an FF MMO not necessarily a "Current" MMO. Sorry thats my 2 cents.

You're arguing on a matter of personal preference, and assuming your stance is a majority.

Final Fantasy is a subjective experience to begin with. In fact, a defining factor of Final Fantasy is that it's numerals differ from one another with each iteration. A person who likes six, might not like seven, might like eight, might think two was dumb, etc. But the point of the matter is, no system was a duplication of the other.

So why are FFXI romanticists insistent in forcing such a thing? The answer is personal preference. My issue against them is - they're not looking for alternatives. They want leveling slow to the point of exhaustion to others and they fail to acknowledge the reasons why that would be considered a bad mechanic by their intellectual opponents - even though I've listed the primary reason as plain as I possibly could.

There are other means of progression the Developers could instill in this game that does not enforce a sense of separation in the base.

There are other means of creating a sense of journey and development without attaching it to some arbitrary number system.

[Elexia]

So why are FFXI romanticists insistent in forcing.

The same reason you "WoW Romanticists" are forcing your ideals on everyone? If "FFXI romanticists" aren't allowed to force ideals (even though they aren't) why can the other side force ideals?

It's fine to dislike FFXI, but be real here.

[Velhart]

The same reason you "WoW Romanticists" are forcing your ideals on everyone? If "FFXI romanticists" aren't allowed to force ideals (even though they aren't) why can the other side force ideals?

It's fine to dislike FFXI, but be real here.

I never understand people's logic on "WoW clone", its setup became a standard for the genre itself. Would you say that other RPG's are clones of Final Fantasy/Dragon Quest because they use a similar interface? "Ohh this game is a turned based battle system? Its obviously a FF clone.". Chrono Trigger use the same ATB gauge system as FFIV and still considered one of the greatest RPG's of all time. Sure created by the same company, but it's RPG concepts are not completely original, interface wise. What truly makes a game of that genre good is creating your own unique twist to it. Bring people in with the sense of familiarity, and then "BAM!", give them something original feeling.

Chrono Trigger used basic RPG concepts and interface, what made it unique was it's Dual/Triple Tech system and it's time travel method on conveying a story, not to mention multiple endings and new game+. I believe FFXIV 2.0 is the same way. MMO players will come in with that sense of familiarity, then SE will slap something at them that makes the game unique compared to other MMO's. Can compare it to FPS's also, they all use the same/similar interface, but its what they bring in the game's concepts that makes it unique. Bioshock was able to use basic FPS UI concepts, and at the same time, made a very original feeling game.

FFXI purist do need to realize, while it was a great game at it's time, a lot of it's concepts are outdated and will never bring in it's large audience. SE aims at getting the big audience, not just a niche audience like FFXI. The common MMO player does not want to grind on the same monster all day, they want a fun way of progressing their character. The best solution I see to this is questing.

[Elexia]

Funny thing is, the "common player" are also tired of grinding on boring quests all day.

[Hyrist]

The same reason you "WoW Romanticists" are forcing your ideals on everyone? If "FFXI romanticists" aren't allowed to force ideals (even though they aren't) why can the other side force ideals?

It's fine to dislike FFXI, but be real here.

I am being real. Compromise is the solution here, one you're refuting wholesale.

Secondary, I am not a WoW Player, nor do I appeal to it. However, even if FFXI is Square Enix's most profitable game, those profits dwarfed to inconsequential size by the success of WoW, which you seem to be venomously disapproving of.

If we are to be truely netural here, you need to first acknolege that WoW beats FFXI by an approximate factor of twenty four in terms of peak subscriptions. That is not something you ignore because you have a preference to a personal memory. That is when you sit up straight and look at seriously at the differences.

Even ignoring WoW, SWTOR, Rift, Aion, Tera: Their initial subscriptions alone doubled our highest number in FFXI at its peak. Guild Wars 2 is poised to do the same. Yet you scoff at these titles. Even as many of them drop large numbers of subscriptions, they're still pulling higher numbers than FFXI is currently.

You tote around that sign, but I don't believe you follow its lesson.

It is time to stop with the accusatory tones and work towards solutions that appeal to a wide base, not a niche audience. That means putting down the pitchforks and torches saying that the world will burn if leveling is faster than what you want it to be, and start working on other ways that would make content attractive, especially throughout the level span.

Personally, rather than sit and try to stretch out the content by enforcing areas with level caps. I'd rather see them simply add more depth and replay-ability to content and have it be widely accessible.

There are many paths to go about this at variable level speeds. But FFXI is a very, very poor example of good leveling speed. They continually, constantly tried to improve the system and the playerbase was never satisfied with it until after the fact, on the outside looking in. They tend to forget the six hours shouting for a party outside Quifim, or the entire day's worth of XP lost due to a train at Selbina entrance. They overlook the Princess RDMs and BRDs, and the fact that WHM's got pretty much forced out of XP/Merit parties for the duration of an entire expansion.

There are so many incredible flaws in making a stretched out leveling system that do not need to be in this game, and FFXI embodied many of them.

That is not to say that FFXIV's leveling speed needs to be lightening quick. But keep in mind this is a multiple-job system so if it's going to be similar to other MMOs on the market, the leveling speed does have to be a tad faster than those, if Yoshi is to encourage players to play multiple classes per character.

Idealy, the quest and storyline content should support this, so that the player does not feel either rushed nor pushed down. That's a delicate balance to create - one that we will NOT be able to properly measure sitting here on the forums complaining at each other. Especially given everyone's differing playstyles.

Now I've already listed several alternatives, from an optional XP trade for a differing currency, to quested skills, to level-capped dungeons. (And to add an alternative to that, instead of level capping, how about damage capping? So that those of higher level can still use their full skillset, but the effectiveness of those skills is reduced to compensate for the difference.)

I'd like it if you'd attempt to meet me halfway here and come of with a few ideas that would satisfy more than your own ideal.

[Velhart]

Funny thing is, the "common player" are also tired of grinding on boring quests all day.

True enough, but as you cans see, other companies have taken new approaches to the quest grinding system. Star Wars comes to mind on this. They focused heavily on making a great leveling experience by giving you an engaging story the whole way to 50. Which to me worked. Unfortunately the game suffered by lacking in the "MMO" portion of an MMORPG".

From what is said in interviews. Main quests will semi-link in with the general quests done along the way towards it. This is progression done right. Start of with exciting action, then go through your calm phase in preparation for the next action phase. Actually, it is explained well in this video.

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/episode-07-pacing

Basically, good progression is making a balance between the very exciting and calm phases. Progressing the main storyline being the exciting portion, then taking on smaller quests in the calm phase.

Will this work out for SE? I can't tell you, but I do believe quest progression is the best solution. Unless anyone here can come up with a better concept than monster grinding or quest grinding. Of course you can make it heavily RPG oriented like Star Wars, but you run the risk of the "MMO" portion getting stale in the process. That is SW's biggest problem right now, people treated it more like a single player RPG and got bored with end game real fast. In MMO's, you have to feel like not only are you contributing to the storyline, you have to contribute to the world itself also.

[Rutelor]

The same argument could be said by trying to preempt concerns this late in the development cycle. A lot of what you're talking about would require, as I staid before, sweeping changes to the entire system. If you are saying you are not liking what you have been hearing, that is one thing. But demanding it changed before even trying it is another.

I am not "demanding" any changes to content I haven't tried. I am giving my (admittedly strong) opinion on issues that I care about in game-play, and against which tendency seems to go of late, not only in this game, but in the industry at large.

I would describe myself in a state of suspense. I am waiting for information to truly speculate upon and an actual experience in 2.0 to give constructive feedback for.

I'm also in a state of suspense. It's only I don't believe for a second silence will contribute positively in the areas that still can be changed. And later could be too late. I'm writing, yes, but I don't believe I'm doing so heavy-handedly, nor too brashly.

I know it won't be perfect, I know there will be parts of the game I'm flat out not interested in and I'll state what will make me interested in it.


But as far as the general subject of grinding. We have two types of 'progression' typical in RPGs, especially MMORPGS. We've the level grind, and the gear grind. This game is much more about the gear grind than it is about the level grind, which is a good idea, considering most successful games right now are realizing that the level grind is simply not sitting well with the bulk of players these days. People like to have their full skillset to play with, and would rather improve through practice, than be carted around having multiple training wheels slowly being taken off as you go along.

It's why skillset games like League of Legends are becoming more and more popular, though that is a different genere.

We can acclimate some ideas of 'training to be good' by making quest chains for specific abilities (heck, even make us choose between training for one ability or another to further specialize.) But I really don't see FFXI's grind being a feasible mechanic here.

Again, I don't have enough info on the actual pacing of 2.0's leveling to judge. "Faster" by Yoshida's perspective may not be faster for us, who take every advantage we can get.

The rest of this thoughtful post, Hyrst, I very much agree with. It's just that word "Faster" that scares me, and I think it's best if I, by saying so, I contribute a bit to prick the community to express their thoughts on the issue and, in general, to illuminate us all. Your replies, are part of this, and for that I, personally, I'm thankful.

This game's development company has taken the very unusual path of rebuilding it with a very determined and proactive community nested in its inside. It cannot now go back and ignore it's bidding. This community's opinion, for good or bad, will imprint the game; I want it to be for good, and I just happen to think that requires respectful, thoughtful and intelligent expression. People like you (and--it's to be hoped--I). I'm not trying to win an argument, or to have my opinion be the driving guideline, but rather to help (sometimes clumsily, I'll admit) steer the community into expressing civilly and articulately what its wants might be.

R

[XxOstiaxX]

Funny thing is, the "common player" are also tired of grinding on boring quests all day.

Really ? Where is your proof ?

[Synthesis]

I agree with OP. Everything is just end-game, end-game... Meh. Everything is rushing there, I dont like this system too.

[Rutelor]

I am not a WoW Player, nor do I appeal to it. However, even if FFXI is Square Enix's most profitable game, those profits dwarfed to inconsequential size by the success of WoW, which you seem to be venomously disapproving of.

If we are to be truely netural here, you need to first acknolege that WoW beats FFXI by an approximate factor of twenty four in terms of peak subscriptions. That is not something you ignore because you have a preference to a personal memory. That is when you sit up straight and look at seriously at the differences.

Even ignoring WoW, SWTOR, Rift, Aion, Tera: Their initial subscriptions alone doubled our highest number in FFXI at its peak. Guild Wars 2 is poised to do the same. Yet you scoff at these titles. Even as many of them drop large numbers of subscriptions, they're still pulling higher numbers than FFXI is currently.

One point most modern audiences have trouble navigating through is how the loud voice of the gigantic financial and demographic success of popular products seems to obliterate the voice of less successful options; the less numerous popularity and inferior financial earnings of more demanding and perhaps less terse material always lose when people go out of their way to determine what's best. It's an argument that most of the time does not include considerations of real quality in its scope.

This is one of the inherent issues with markets, and democracy, as regulating structures: Despite their enormous virtues, and the fact that, no doubt, we lack better options, they do tend to push the notion that popularity equals quality. And who can argue against the mighty push of a big bank account?

The notion that the taste or the preferences of the lesser numbers are equal to elitism, and are therefore perverse, is so profoundly ingrained in our culture--because it's so horrendously exploited and abused, both politically and commercially--that it's difficult even to argue against its blatant incorrectness and demagogical bias.

Mozart has become inferior to Michael Jackson, McDonald's and Subway superior to nutritive home cooking or fine dining, Coca-Cola better than water or wine, Rothko and Pollock lesser than Rockwell, Lucas inherently better than Antonioni or Bergman, and stretching the issue, FFXI markedly inferior to World of Warcraft or Rift, which easily "beat" it by high number factors.

The full philosophical argument against this view is perhaps not within the scope of a forum like this one, but the questioning of it definitely fits here.

Let's not yield so easily to the tyranny of the majority, and the rule of the minimum common denominator, which is inherent complexity-phobic and unaware of quality. And let's remember that the truly great democracies of the world institutionalize opposition to the majority rule, and subject said rule to checks and balances.

R