Stop the Grind-to-the-Endgame madness!

[Rutelor]

The same argument could be said by trying to preempt concerns this late in the development cycle. A lot of what you're talking about would require, as I staid before, sweeping changes to the entire system. If you are saying you are not liking what you have been hearing, that is one thing. But demanding it changed before even trying it is another.

I am not "demanding" any changes to content I haven't tried. I am giving my (admittedly strong) opinion on issues that I care about in game-play, and against which tendency seems to go of late, not only in this game, but in the industry at large.

I would describe myself in a state of suspense. I am waiting for information to truly speculate upon and an actual experience in 2.0 to give constructive feedback for.

I'm also in a state of suspense. It's only I don't believe for a second silence will contribute positively in the areas that still can be changed. And later could be too late. I'm writing, yes, but I don't believe I'm doing so heavy-handedly, nor too brashly.

I know it won't be perfect, I know there will be parts of the game I'm flat out not interested in and I'll state what will make me interested in it.


But as far as the general subject of grinding. We have two types of 'progression' typical in RPGs, especially MMORPGS. We've the level grind, and the gear grind. This game is much more about the gear grind than it is about the level grind, which is a good idea, considering most successful games right now are realizing that the level grind is simply not sitting well with the bulk of players these days. People like to have their full skillset to play with, and would rather improve through practice, than be carted around having multiple training wheels slowly being taken off as you go along.

It's why skillset games like League of Legends are becoming more and more popular, though that is a different genere.

We can acclimate some ideas of 'training to be good' by making quest chains for specific abilities (heck, even make us choose between training for one ability or another to further specialize.) But I really don't see FFXI's grind being a feasible mechanic here.

Again, I don't have enough info on the actual pacing of 2.0's leveling to judge. "Faster" by Yoshida's perspective may not be faster for us, who take every advantage we can get.

The rest of this thoughtful post, Hyrst, I very much agree with. It's just that word "Faster" that scares me, and I think it's best if I, by saying so, I contribute a bit to prick the community to express their thoughts on the issue and, in general, to illuminate us all. Your replies, are part of this, and for that I, personally, I'm thankful.

This game's development company has taken the very unusual path of rebuilding it with a very determined and proactive community nested in its inside. It cannot now go back and ignore it's bidding. This community's opinion, for good or bad, will imprint the game; I want it to be for good, and I just happen to think that requires respectful, thoughtful and intelligent expression. People like you (and--it's to be hoped--I). I'm not trying to win an argument, or to have my opinion be the driving guideline, but rather to help (sometimes clumsily, I'll admit) steer the community into expressing civilly and articulately what its wants might be.

R

[Hyrist]

I am not "demanding" any changes to content I haven't tried. I am giving my (admittedly strong) opinion on issues that I care about in game-play, and against which tendency seems to go of late, not only in this game, but in the industry at large.

I'd like to first mention that I love relying to your post. I read them and they're very thoughtful and constructive to boost. That said, you my friend are a rare gem in which your specific tone is not reflected in others in your 'camp' so to speak. Many would chose to defend their arguments by defacing another credibility somehow, yet you keep your composure and provide a thoughtful and respectful reply.

I'm smiling right now in delight because of it. Thank you.

I'm also in a state of suspense. It's only I don't believe for a second silence will contribute positively in the areas that still can be changed. And later could be too late. I'm writing, yes, but I don't believe I'm doing so heavy-handedly, nor too brashly.

This said, I do spectulate that we are too late, at this point, for high thought level discussion as to the progression systems in 2.0. At least as far in the manners of general approaches and concepts.

At this point in development, given our indicated launch date coming at the beginning of 2013, the team should be beyond the conception stage and into optimization. So the ideal is in place and we need to be more aware of the formulae by which SE is running experience and progression by, before we can ask for modifications. Otherwise, we're asking them to rethink the entire formula a third time.

The rest of this thoughtful post, Hyrist, I very much agree with.

Thank you.

It's just that word "Faster" that scares me, and I think it's best if I, by saying so, I contribute a bit to prick the community to express their thoughts on the issue and, in general, to illuminate us all. Your replies, are part of this, and for that I, personally, I'm thankful.

This game's development company has taken the very unusual path of rebuilding it with a very determined and proactive community nested in its inside. It cannot now go back and ignore it's bidding. This community's opinion, for good or bad, will imprint the game; I want it to be for good, and I just happen to think that requires respectful, thoughtful and intelligent expression. People like you (and--it's to be hoped--I). I'm not trying to win an argument, or to have my opinion be the driving guideline, but rather to help (sometimes clumsily, I'll admit) steer the community into expressing civilly and articulately what its wants might be.

R

Tis a noble adjective with one major problem. We cannot assume that every individual on these boards are adults, or are able to be respectful for whatever reason. That said, finding those who do entertain a respectful discourse is part of the pleasures in any community.

More on the subject of the word "Faster". I will have to admit, for the sake of clarity, that I too became somewhat starteled that Yoshida chose such wording for the leveling process.

However beyond the fear I sought reason. Yoshida is withholding information about 2.0 and we know as much, but he also likes to drop clues. The numbers in our serveys were pretty clear that the majority of the players were fairly content with the leveling pace. So in order to make the logical leap from 'It's ok where we are.' to 'we probably should make it faster' likely lies within that black box of information we do not have.

If I am permitted to speculate, I believe it means we're having 'more' added. Be that a higher level cap or simply more classes to level. To keep the same time amount to reach similar goals, that means the general pacing would have to increase. This may be a misinterpretation of the data given by the players, mind you, but it would make sense if that was the conclusion made.

If this is the case, then we do have time to tell them to dial it back some. We'll know in the Beta for certain.

Another approach to the idea term of 'faster' may be use time. For example, on average, through the course to fifty, it takes me about an hour per level. I beleive that is an ideal course, as getting level 50 would take about fifty hours of playtime. At ten hours a week, that would mean five weeks.

Of course time would be distracted doing quests, raid runs with friends, and what have you.

If the process of doing raids, questing, etc, also leveled me, then I'm no longer separation my time just for leveling, and by proxy, leveling is faster. This would be closer to the ideal as now players are getting rewarded for adventuring and being in a part of the rich content during levels that we were asking for, but we would have to see the matter first hand before we could speculate that the amount of experience gathered this way is too much, or if the quests and objectives seem deep enough to merit its rewards.

Overall I caution against panic in a situation that we know so little, but rather compose our thoughts to the point where we have our ideals refined, yet flexible enough to get specific with the Developers once we have the Beta in our hands, both positively and constructively.

I am keeping my ideals open enough for me to be able to say "Wow, I'm fifty already?" And feel good about it, rather than disappointed. That's probably Yoshida's end goal: to have you so wrapped up in enjoying the things you do, that you don't notice that you're grinding while doing it. It's up to us to tweak it so that response works for the widest number of people - and I caution against presuming one's self in the role of being a majority. To achieve that, we have to assume a juxtaposition - (and I don't mean everyone's favorite Podcast Tarutaru. )