AOE Spam Fest <Please remove it>

[Grimwald]

No. The point of final fantasy is supposed to be based around fighting epic hordes of monsters and proving that you're some kind of epic warrior of legends. Fighting one Goblin at a time doesn't really emulate that.

[Firon]

No. The point of final fantasy is supposed to be based around fighting epic hordes of monsters and proving that you're some kind of epic warrior of legends. Fighting one Goblin at a time doesn't really emulate that.

This ^ it's the same reason most xi players avoided fights where there are lot of of adds.

[Hyrist]

Let's take the political correctness out of this debate and focus on what it's really about.

OP basically said: "Nerf BLM, Nerf WAR harder."

That's all. And that's flawed.

AoE is going to be a factor in this game. A good factor, and a fun factor in many cases. In United We Stand, both AoE and single target abilities were needed to win the fight, and deisgns in the game should be designed more along that line.

What I keep finding is that those who are scared by Black Mages and Warrior's Capasity to quickily destroy a cluster of weak monsters is the assumption that this sort of field EXP is the only solution for their group EXP needs.

As I've stated before: Why not Leves designed for groups?

Listen to the pros here for a moment before you complain:

You can pick whatever EXP camp you want as they'll be accessible to everyone thanks to the fact that the monsters for you will be designated to you.
The combat will have more depth to it because the monsters can be designed specifically to make group combat feel good.
The difficulty and thus the rewards can be adjustable on the fly.
And you'll still require that feeling of comradeship in getting a group together.

To top it off, they could also design different KINDS of group Leves, one of which could have you defending against waves of enemies that come in to a designated camp spot. Or having you prepare an onslaught against a large enemy group or boss type monster, depending on your desire.

It is a far superior design than simply going out and killing random fauna that could easily be ruined by competition, or in trade ruin someone elses day by stampeding over a player's hunting grounds. It can not only emulate the desired feel of an XP party, but it can also expand upon an XP parties options in obtaining said XP.

I do not see the reason why you have to drastically alter the current design of field monsters - something which should be a unique experience in and of itself, just to create something that could be met in systems already existing in the game, and can be used to circumvent the flaws the old 'xp camp' system have in terms of camp competition.

Let's use what we have to move forward, and improve upon the game to meet many player's desires, rather than regress backwards to appeal to ONLY one group or another.

[Ryans]

Seeing as most people tend to have their own definition of what is considered Final Fantasy, saying things like this is meaningless. You might think it isn't "Final Fantasy enough", but others might be okay with it.

Clearly people have their own definition of what feel Final Fantasy games should have, but none of the previous games (except maybe XIII) have combat where you can't keep track of what is going on. The idea that Final Fantasy characters are supposed to be godly just isn't true. Most of the characters are fairly normal people who get thrust into situation they weren't prepared for. With that said, the combat required various tactics because the characters were always facing challenges that were supposed to be able stop them but their teamwork prevailed.

So tell me, how does tab targeting the closest enemy in a group of 8 very weak monsters and using Fire to kill them at the same time have the same feel as any of the previous titles?

[Firon]

Clearly people have their own definition of what feel Final Fantasy games should have, but none of the previous games (except maybe XIII) have combat where you can't keep track of what is going on. The idea that Final Fantasy characters are supposed to be godly just isn't true. Most of the characters are fairly normal people who get thrust into situation they weren't prepared for. With that said, the combat required various tactics because the characters were always facing challenges that were supposed to be able stop them but their teamwork prevailed.

So tell me, how does tab targeting the closest enemy in a group of 8 very weak monsters and using Fire to kill them at the same time have the same feel as any of the previous titles?

Pick fire pair it will all materia and all the mobs on screen die.

[Hyrist]

So tell me, how does tab targeting the closest enemy in a group of 8 very weak monsters and using Fire to kill them at the same time have the same feel as any of the previous titles?

Clearly you've never played any of the 8 or 16 bit titles. That's exactly how EXP grinding works in those game.

-1 Pick field.
-2 Walk around field until random encounter occurs.
-3 Spam enemy squad with strongest AoE attacks (Using strongest focus attacks on the hardest monsters in the group for characters without AoE.)
-4 Find next random encounter.

That formulate and camps occur in every single final fantasy. The only reason why you have be able to keep track of it, is that it was slowed down for single player use. Play FF12 a while without pausing, and you'll see that your ability to keep track of the action diminishes. Not really because the monsters are too weak or the battle is too frantic, but because you're fighting real time on a 3d plane from one perspective.

Do the same Formula in FF6 with your cursor set to "Memory" and hold down your attack button with default AoE spells, and you'll get the exact sensation - not to mention faster XP.

So yeah, you kinda loose clout in your argument there. Every single player FF game can easily turn into an AoE-fest, and such tactics are usually only bested with specific monsters which can be considered the equivalent of raid monsters or raid bosses.

[KujinRen]

How is AoE not "final fantasy-ish?"

Many of them, from the very first one on had "kill everything on the screen" AoE. I was honestly very irritated in FFXI how rarely AoE got used, especially AoE weapon skills which were almost always terrible. almost always got you killed and were never really used until Abyssea.

The game has mob parties- they're just only in levequests. For whatever reason, they didn't take it much further than that. However, the link and call for help systems kind of offset the lack of it. Though, calls for help don't seem to get invoked very often.

I think AOE should be situational. What I'm referring to are the AOE spam fests of 10-20 mobs where everybody uses nothing but AOEs to burn mobs and White Mages spam Curaga.

I miss having a sense of danger and being cautious. For example and not limited to: Your party is grinding Mandragoras in Yuhtunga Jungle and that ONE Goblin roamer nearby can "potentially" wipe your party if you're not prepared or caught off guard. I don't think AOE should be removed, but I would appreciate individual mobs to be more of a challenge.

[Hyrist]

Why does it have to be 'individual mobs'?

Why can't monsters as a group be more of a challenge. I don't know about you, but Many players on One Monster should be reserved for strong and boss type monsters. The rest should be group on group when it comes to parties.

It wouldn't be all that bad if we could see enemy groups, especially in beast-men zones, act and function as we do. With a tank pulling provokes and taunts on us to keep us from attacking their squishes, which in turn deal damage and do curing.

Of course that's just one of many suggestions that would grow the game rather than simply alter it to suit another crowd. The game should appeal to a wide audience and therefore should accommodate both camps. I still beleive Squad Leves would work best for party leveling desires as it eliminates the whole camp competition issue, and could provide various ways of gaining XP.

[Lux_Rayna]

Clearly you've never played any of the 8 or 16 bit titles. That's exactly how EXP grinding works in those game.

-1 Pick field.
-2 Walk around field until random encounter occurs.
-3 Spam enemy squad with strongest AoE attacks (Using strongest focus attacks on the hardest monsters in the group for characters without AoE.)
-4 Find next random encounter.

That formulate and camps occur in every single final fantasy. The only reason why you have be able to keep track of it, is that it was slowed down for single player use. Play FF12 a while without pausing, and you'll see that your ability to keep track of the action diminishes. Not really because the monsters are too weak or the battle is too frantic, but because you're fighting real time on a 3d plane from one perspective.

Do the same Formula in FF6 with your cursor set to "Memory" and hold down your attack button with default AoE spells, and you'll get the exact sensation - not to mention faster XP.

So yeah, you kinda loose clout in your argument there. Every single player FF game can easily turn into an AoE-fest, and such tactics are usually only bested with specific monsters which can be considered the equivalent of raid monsters or raid bosses.

No, you just supported his argument...the issue is that you have no idea what his argument is. The argument is NOT that AOE's = bad. The argument is that it is currently a clusterfuck of 15 mobs that are haphazardly fused together, creating such a mess that there is no feeling of "tactics" involved. You can't choose the strongest target effectively, you can't "line them up", you can't do anything except random target a mob and watch a whole group die. Your example is the exact opposite of what he's trying to argue against. In fact, your example is exactly what the OP wants. He's not speaking Greek, idk why its so hard to understand. There is no strategy in the game because:

1) Too many mobs, like way too many. No organization at all, I can't even choose my targets really based on the battlefield situation, and everything dies in one aoe. Maybe 2. That's just a zerg fest..like a DotA clone or Diablo. Click and watch things die.

2) Targetting is atrocious, which is amplified by #1. I can't focus my attacks well because I can't even see wtf is going on. There's a huge blob of feathers over there, to the point where I couldn't even count how many mobs there are, nor find the strongest one. Either cycle targets til I find it (dead by then due to collateral aoe dmg), or say screw it and throw an aoe at the nearest mob..hoping to kill the strong guy by accident. What generally happens is the latter.


Hopefully you now understand the point of the thread. Its not AOE, just the way its done. Final Fantasy has always been a "thinking" game...not a "haphazardly throw AoE's around and kill the guy you want eventually" game.

[Hyrist]

No, you missed the point of his argument that was being defused. He was stating that multiple mobs was not "Final Fantasy" because he diddn't like the fact that it was harder to keep track of when it is was real time.

Yet, multiple mobs was still a stable of Final Fantasy 12, which is also a 3d continual time game.

If you think the AoE fights in FFXIV require no thought, you are not doing any of the actual fights in the game. Cutters Cry: Specific mob types need to be extinguised at the same time to progress.

Darkhold - ENEMY AOE's are a major danger, also, using AOE's at the wrong time or in the wrong position angered the ghosts that would kill you.

Garuda - AoE's, particularly the physical ones, needed to be used just right to rid yourself of as many Plumes as possible.

United We Stand - you had to use AoE's and single target attacks on top of being aware of hate in order to win.

This game does AoE's properly. You are fixated in the portions of the game in which AoE's are most effective. Nothing in this game states Zerg Rush = Win. Usually attempting so kills you and fails the run.

You're taking a minor portion of the game as an example as the entire thing, and the argument I diffused was "This isn't Final Fantasy" which is utter baloney. Wiping weak mobs with mass AoEs has always been a part of Final Fantasy. You still have to think, plan, and react accordingly in any battle that counts for anything in this game. Please stop complaining about xp camps like it's the entirety of the game.

If you'd like to talk about adding greater depth to XP parties, you can read my above suggestions and actually comment on those, instead of attacking a side argument out of context.