AOE Spam Fest <Please remove it>

[KujinRen]

How is AoE not "final fantasy-ish?"

Many of them, from the very first one on had "kill everything on the screen" AoE. I was honestly very irritated in FFXI how rarely AoE got used, especially AoE weapon skills which were almost always terrible. almost always got you killed and were never really used until Abyssea.

The game has mob parties- they're just only in levequests. For whatever reason, they didn't take it much further than that. However, the link and call for help systems kind of offset the lack of it. Though, calls for help don't seem to get invoked very often.

I think AOE should be situational. What I'm referring to are the AOE spam fests of 10-20 mobs where everybody uses nothing but AOEs to burn mobs and White Mages spam Curaga.

I miss having a sense of danger and being cautious. For example and not limited to: Your party is grinding Mandragoras in Yuhtunga Jungle and that ONE Goblin roamer nearby can "potentially" wipe your party if you're not prepared or caught off guard. I don't think AOE should be removed, but I would appreciate individual mobs to be more of a challenge.

[Hyrist]

No, you missed the point of his argument that was being defused. He was stating that multiple mobs was not "Final Fantasy" because he diddn't like the fact that it was harder to keep track of when it is was real time.

Yet, multiple mobs was still a stable of Final Fantasy 12, which is also a 3d continual time game.

If you think the AoE fights in FFXIV require no thought, you are not doing any of the actual fights in the game. Cutters Cry: Specific mob types need to be extinguised at the same time to progress.

Darkhold - ENEMY AOE's are a major danger, also, using AOE's at the wrong time or in the wrong position angered the ghosts that would kill you.

Garuda - AoE's, particularly the physical ones, needed to be used just right to rid yourself of as many Plumes as possible.

United We Stand - you had to use AoE's and single target attacks on top of being aware of hate in order to win.

This game does AoE's properly. You are fixated in the portions of the game in which AoE's are most effective. Nothing in this game states Zerg Rush = Win. Usually attempting so kills you and fails the run.

You're taking a minor portion of the game as an example as the entire thing, and the argument I diffused was "This isn't Final Fantasy" which is utter baloney. Wiping weak mobs with mass AoEs has always been a part of Final Fantasy. You still have to think, plan, and react accordingly in any battle that counts for anything in this game. Please stop complaining about xp camps like it's the entirety of the game.

If you'd like to talk about adding greater depth to XP parties, you can read my above suggestions and actually comment on those, instead of attacking a side argument out of context.

[Lux_Rayna]

No, you missed the point of his argument that was being defused. He was stating that multiple mobs was not "Final Fantasy" because he diddn't like the fact that it was harder to keep track of when it is was real time.

Yet, multiple mobs was still a stable of Final Fantasy 12, which is also a 3d continual time game.

I didn't read the *whole* thread, but I didnt' see this in the OP or recent posts, so I have nooo idea how you are drawing this conclusion. He said the current implementation of AoE sucks, and I agree. There's nothing challenging about it..its random click+aoe.

If you think the AoE fights in FFXIV require no thought, you are not doing any of the actual fights in the game.

Or maybe you find them more difficult than I do? I don't see the thought in anything about stronghold runs, darkhold, garuda plumes, AV, etc etc. The only one is CC, but one out of many doesn't count as good to me.
Cutters Cry: Specific mob types need to be extinguised at the same time to progress.

You're taking a minor portion of the game as an example as the entire thing, and the argument I diffused was "This isn't Final Fantasy" which is utter baloney. Wiping weak mobs with mass AoEs has always been a part of Final Fantasy. You still have to think, plan, and react accordingly in any battle that counts for anything in this game. Please stop complaining about xp camps like it's the entirety of the game.

Yes but it wasn't a zerg. Have you ran a dungeon? That's a zerg. Stronghold runs? Zerg. The only thing you can't outright zerg is CC, and AV in a couple spots because of all the toads. Everything else is zerg zerg zerg. Have you asked what mobs the BLM's are targetting for giggles? They probably dont even know. Just click one thats close by and your AOE will hit the important one by default. That's not very final fantasy if you ask me. In Final Fantasy you were at *least* allowed to effectively choose your targets. Good luck choosing a target in a mess of 15 mobs. Its awful. Targetting is atrocious. I can't even assist the main tank because I can't see what is hitting him. There is nothing strategic about that. A lot of this can be fixed with a better targetting system, but I see the OP's point. And its a fairly good one.

If you'd like to talk about adding greater depth to XP parties, you can read my above suggestions and actually comment on those, instead of attacking a side argument out of context.

Considering your side argument has to do with the main topic of the thread (the AOE's) I fail to see how its a "side" argument at all. Its the main topic, this thread isn't about suggestions (outside of get rid of it), its about what the aoe situation is like right now.

[Hyrist]

Ok, time to smack down some falacies.

Yes but it wasn't a zerg. Have you ran a dungeon?

The 25 Dungeons had objectives that needed to be met. Were the monsters killed promptly? Yes, but that's a direct corrlation to another problem this game has - rewarding speed runs. Next.

Stronghold runs? Zerg.

When was the last time a Stronghold was important for anything but farming Headbands/Tapers? And go to the end of a stronghold and try to hold your ground for more than 10 minutes. See how long your zerg tactic holds up.

By the way Castra Novem is a stronghold. You need a hell of a lot of people to zerg that.

The only thing you can't outright zerg is CC, and AV in a couple spots because of all the toads. Everything else is zerg zerg zerg.

Garuda, Ifrit, Especially Ifrit Extreme, Moogle, Chocobo,

Have you asked what mobs the BLM's are targetting for giggles? They probably dont even know. Just click one thats close by and your AOE will hit the important one by default. That's not very final fantasy if you ask me.

*stare*

...
Just What

Are you talking about?

Saying not very final fantasy?


Again, what is and is not Final Fantasy is not up to the opinions of the players, but of the developers of Final Fantasy themselves. And as you can see above, there was quite a bit of "Blowing things up with massive amounts of magic with litter regard to target." In the previous games.

In Final Fantasy you were at *least* allowed to effectively choose your targets. Good luck choosing a target in a mess of 15 mobs. Its awful. Targetting is atrocious.

That has nothing to do with AoEs and everything to do with the bad engine and UI. You're committing blame by proxy. AoE's isn't the problem in this instance, the UI is, that and the fact that you keep picking weak monsters and old content as your examples.


The side argument was that AoE spam was not Final Fantasy. I've provided evidence to the contrary. Targeting issues are issues with the game's targeting. Monster's ease of death to magical damage is an issue with magical resists and players simply preferring to stick to weak monsters when Xping.

If enemies had better magic resist scaling on number of targets and level difference, we woulden't be having this conversation.

If people had better targeting, like /as, so that the melees could focus on the harder-to-kill targets of groups, we would not be having this conversation.

This is not a problem with how AoE Centric this game is. The fact that this game is group on group is a good thing. Does it need to be further refined? Yes. But AoEs, yes, even AoE Zerging, is a part of Final Fantasy, and has been since before Diablo.

Fights that make you 'think' still exist in quantifiable numbers in this game, so please quit filling your requests with overblown arguments and false statements. Castram Novum, Garuda, and Hamlet Defence has already proven that the developing use of AoEs are already beginning to become refined. Its time to further refine the argument itself to match current development trends.

And current development trends say "Hey, good job on United we Stand. We need more of that."

[Ryans]

No, you missed the point of his argument that was being defused. He was stating that multiple mobs was not "Final Fantasy" because he diddn't like the fact that it was harder to keep track of when it is was real time.
Yet, multiple mobs was still a stable of Final Fantasy 12, which is also a 3d continual time game.

I guess Ill set the record straight on what -my- point was. To quote myself from earlier in the thread.

Some of you seem to be missing the point. Its not about how many monsters you fight, its about keeping control of the ones you do. Spamming abilities on monsters that you aren't even sure of their exact location because of the clusterfuck going on isn't Final Fantasy. Most of the Final Fantasies are turn based so it doesn't matter how many enemies you are fighting.

In case some of you weren't aware, trash pulls are actually allowed to be difficult content and not something that is just in the way of your reward. I'd rather have fight two or three challenging trash monsters than 8+ monsters that make it nearly impossible to determine who is hitting what.

I never, not once, said that multiple monsters wasn't something that Final Fantasy games do. I said that spamfest wasn't something that Final Fantasy games do.

As for your example of fighting in previous titles, even if Lux_Rayna wasn't spot on, those tactics tend to be for end game leveling up or simply when you are getting too strong for the monsters you are fighting. When you are playing through those games, you don't spam your AOE abilities without care of what is the most important monster to kill first.

And for FF12, you can easily keep track of what the character you are playing as is doing in that game. I don't expect to be able to see every ability that every teammate does, but at least knowing what monster I am hitting would be nice.

[KujinRen]

I never, not once, said that multiple monsters wasn't something that Final Fantasy games do. I said that spamfest wasn't something that Final Fantasy games do.

As for your example of fighting in previous titles, even if Lux_Rayna wasn't spot on, those tactics tend to be for end game leveling up or simply when you are getting too strong for the monsters you are fighting. When you are playing through those games, you don't spam your AOE abilities without care of what is the most important monster to kill first.

This

[Godsleftsock]

Love the thread lol

[Firon]

God please no FF XI made your char seem so weak needed 6 ppl to kill one mob was already shameful enough. Only FF where 6 ppl can get beat up by a single rabbit >_>.

[Alaltus]

God please no FF XI made your char seem so weak needed 6 ppl to kill one mob was already shameful enough. Only FF where 6 ppl can get beat up by a single rabbit >_>.

If that isnt a challenge to SE to bring Fury to FFXIV i dont know what is =P

On a serious note personally i think the content at the moment leans towards large numbers of mobs a bit too much and wouldnt mind seeing a rebalancing of this a bit more towards less more challenging monsters > many less challenging monsters. But theres nothing wrong with having a bit of everything here and there.

[Phen]

I dont mind the idea of group spam but its getting to the point where every job is thm (everyone setting fire). Its depressing to go level arc/brd and find out you might as well be leveling thm again ;/.