[dev1033] Ideas for a Two-Tier Class System: Jobs on Top of Weapon Specializations

[Anathiel]

Just as a suggestion, you mentioned armors favoring titles as well as the jobs. Well from my viewpoint of how you mention it this would mean since a favored piece of gear is more beneficial to one job type than another it would create a somewhat confusing conflict between jobs of a similar yet different type. Say for instance there is a piece of armor that favors Marauder but doesn't favor DRK. The effectiveness of that piece of gear would drop if you were using it as such under the current system. What if instead of a "favored item" for titles it just simply gains small extra bonuses while using a particular title as opposed to losing effectiveness when used with a non-favored class. So for example a piece of gear might normally give 50 defense, +20 HP, +2 Str might instead give 60 def, +30 HP, and +4 str instead when used with a favored title. Just a suggestion I don't know if its been brought up before but it just makes it so that even if you weren't using a particular title you didn't lose any benefits from the armor.

This was indeed brought up and we came to a similar conclusion that really is almost the exact same you gave ^^

[Kirith]

I understand better what you mean now, i must have indeed missed some past post or thread...

I will go look up the schematics, but if you went as far as making schemes we should make some sort of poll, wrap them up and try to present a basic idea together with OP's rationale to a mod.

Meanwhile i stand by my first point: if a class is redundant, like MNK, it should be simply eliminated, because MNK is virtually a pugilist with less skills. This is not the case for WAR, which can be given generic bonuses, being a generic title. And even if that was a problem, we should probably present the raw principle and let the devs eventually decide which skills to give to each title.

EDIT: please point me to a specific discussion because Cairdeas has dozens of started threads with a bunch talking about the combat system.

[Cadaceus]

This was indeed brought up and we came to a similar conclusion that really is almost the exact same you gave ^^

Lol, good to know that we're on the same page. XD

The Title/Job system gives you plenty of options, what it doesn't do is let everybody be able to do everything EQUALLY well. That I think was a problem, at least for me, with FFXII, once you filled up the license board there was nothing to differentiate your characters other than the armor/weapon you chose to equip, you could use all the abilities/spells with equal proficiency so imposing a role on a specific character was just a state of mind, not something that was implemented into the system.

I know this post will be late to the party, however, in XII there were also unchanging stat differences between the characters. No matter how hard you tried to change it, Panelo and/or Ashe made the best healers simply because their stats dictated them as such. Granted everyone could learn everything but Stat points were varied enough to define a character as being better for a specific role within the party.

Just a clarification. :O

[Cairdeas]

I understand better what you mean now, i must have indeed missed some past post or thread...

I will go look up the schematics, but if you went as far as making schemes we should make some sort of poll, wrap them up and try to present a basic idea together with OP's rationale to a mod.

Meanwhile i stand by my first point: if a class is redundant, like MNK, it should be simply eliminated, because MNK is virtually a pugilist with less skills. This is not the case for WAR, which can be given generic bonuses, being a generic title. And even if that was a problem, we should probably present the raw principle and let the devs eventually decide which skills to give to each title.

EDIT: please point me to a specific discussion because Cairdeas has dozens of started threads with a bunch talking about the combat system.

Monk is not a Pugilist with less skills. Its a more specialized fighter then that.

Pugilist is just "One who fights with fists."

a Monk is a spirtual fighter who uses their mind and their vit more then their brute strength to deal damage. They get bonuses for having higher vit then strength as well as bonuses for not wearing heavy armor over wearing lighter faster armor.

Also Monks are not religated to fighting with just their fists like the weapon class Pugilist is. They also have

Fist, Foot, Nunchacku, Spiritual Abilities, some incarnations (White Monk) have healing powers based in White Magic but powered by Vit, Bo-staffs, Clubs, and many other weapons.

Right now yes. Monk would be limited to Pugilist if you wanted the biggest bang for your buck and to be depicting the visual presence of that job. But Monk is a Pugilist while a Pugilist is not a Monk. Enforcer which is a known coming soon Weapon class dealing with clubs/twohand blunt weapons possibly would also be a great choice for Monk, though a Monk Conjurer would be akin to a White Monk from FFTA without having to implement White Monk directly at first.

[Kirith]

I meant the FFXI monk.

There are obviously gameplay differences between the two and i have never leveled my MNK to 75, but for the sake of simple characterization what most people thought of monk was "class that hits stuff with H2H weapons, has lots of hp and has healing skills"

Kicks in MNK were only a passive skill that could be implemented as a high level PUG skill as well and PUG in FFXIV has also the best favors from light gear. At the same time, as a class with naturally high HP it's still a good idea to have high VIT.

Even if you made a MNK title in the FFXI sense with added "spiritual" characterization, you would only be giving it more healing spells and could perhaps make its VIT count for damage, but that would just screw the point allotment system.

So, PUG is indeed a FFXI MNK with less skills.
Making a MNK title in FFXIV would mean giving it skills and characteristics the original FFXI MNK didn't have. I just want that to be clear.

[Cairdeas]

I meant the FFXI monk.

There are obviously gameplay differences between the two and i have never leveled my MNK to 75, but for the sake of simple characterization what most people thought of monk was "class that hits stuff with H2H weapons, has lots of hp and has healing skills"

Kicks in MNK were only a passive skill that could be implemented as a high level PUG skill as well and PUG in FFXIV has also the best favors from light gear. At the same time, as a class with naturally high HP it's still a good idea to have high VIT.

Even if you made a MNK title in the FFXI sense with added "spiritual" characterization, you would only be giving it more healing spells and could perhaps make its VIT count for damage, but that would just screw the point allotment system.

So, PUG is indeed a FFXI MNK with less skills.
Making a MNK title in FFXIV would mean giving it skills and characteristics the original FFXI MNK didn't have. I just want that to be clear.

Actually. Having the Monk Job title unlock Kicks and kick combat maneuvers over fist maneuvers would be how you'd implement Kicking, instead of unlocking them for pug, let monk be the catalyst for the kicks.

[Anathiel]

I meant the FFXI monk.

There are obviously gameplay differences between the two and i have never leveled my MNK to 75, but for the sake of simple characterization what most people thought of monk was "class that hits stuff with H2H weapons, has lots of hp and has healing skills"

Kicks in MNK were only a passive skill that could be implemented as a high level PUG skill as well and PUG in FFXIV has also the best favors from light gear. At the same time, as a class with naturally high HP it's still a good idea to have high VIT.

Even if you made a MNK title in the FFXI sense with added "spiritual" characterization, you would only be giving it more healing spells and could perhaps make its VIT count for damage, but that would just screw the point allotment system.

So, PUG is indeed a FFXI MNK with less skills.
Making a MNK title in FFXIV would mean giving it skills and characteristics the original FFXI MNK didn't have. I just want that to be clear.

I noticed halfway through your reply you talked about screwing up point allotment, and I've narrowed it down. I don't think you've realized that a lot of the ideas in this thread are based upon getting rid of the point allotment system and making stat distribution be automatic based on equipped weapon spec.

And to be honest giving monk skills, abilities, and traits that pug doesn't have is a pretty easy feat, you have every final fantasy from 1 to draw ideas from. Kicking just being a primary one, white monks being another class to draw from. I really doubt getting new material for monk would be a big problem. Especially if they do implement a weapon spec that deals with maces and clubs.

[Aldaine]

Amazing and completely necessary thread. Bringing back traditional classes and styles would be the way to go, no matter how its handled. Applause to thread maker. =P

[Malakhim]

So when a pugilist becomes a monk, he finally realizes that he can use his legs in battle too?

[Anathiel]

So when a pugilist becomes a monk, he finally realizes that he can use his legs in battle too?

Lol, yeah funny how that works out. So kirith did I clear it up?