[dev1033] Ideas for a Two-Tier Class System: Jobs on Top of Weapon Specializations

[Kirith]

I meant the FFXI monk.

There are obviously gameplay differences between the two and i have never leveled my MNK to 75, but for the sake of simple characterization what most people thought of monk was "class that hits stuff with H2H weapons, has lots of hp and has healing skills"

Kicks in MNK were only a passive skill that could be implemented as a high level PUG skill as well and PUG in FFXIV has also the best favors from light gear. At the same time, as a class with naturally high HP it's still a good idea to have high VIT.

Even if you made a MNK title in the FFXI sense with added "spiritual" characterization, you would only be giving it more healing spells and could perhaps make its VIT count for damage, but that would just screw the point allotment system.

So, PUG is indeed a FFXI MNK with less skills.
Making a MNK title in FFXIV would mean giving it skills and characteristics the original FFXI MNK didn't have. I just want that to be clear.

[Cairdeas]

I meant the FFXI monk.

There are obviously gameplay differences between the two and i have never leveled my MNK to 75, but for the sake of simple characterization what most people thought of monk was "class that hits stuff with H2H weapons, has lots of hp and has healing skills"

Kicks in MNK were only a passive skill that could be implemented as a high level PUG skill as well and PUG in FFXIV has also the best favors from light gear. At the same time, as a class with naturally high HP it's still a good idea to have high VIT.

Even if you made a MNK title in the FFXI sense with added "spiritual" characterization, you would only be giving it more healing spells and could perhaps make its VIT count for damage, but that would just screw the point allotment system.

So, PUG is indeed a FFXI MNK with less skills.
Making a MNK title in FFXIV would mean giving it skills and characteristics the original FFXI MNK didn't have. I just want that to be clear.

Actually. Having the Monk Job title unlock Kicks and kick combat maneuvers over fist maneuvers would be how you'd implement Kicking, instead of unlocking them for pug, let monk be the catalyst for the kicks.

[Anathiel]

I meant the FFXI monk.

There are obviously gameplay differences between the two and i have never leveled my MNK to 75, but for the sake of simple characterization what most people thought of monk was "class that hits stuff with H2H weapons, has lots of hp and has healing skills"

Kicks in MNK were only a passive skill that could be implemented as a high level PUG skill as well and PUG in FFXIV has also the best favors from light gear. At the same time, as a class with naturally high HP it's still a good idea to have high VIT.

Even if you made a MNK title in the FFXI sense with added "spiritual" characterization, you would only be giving it more healing spells and could perhaps make its VIT count for damage, but that would just screw the point allotment system.

So, PUG is indeed a FFXI MNK with less skills.
Making a MNK title in FFXIV would mean giving it skills and characteristics the original FFXI MNK didn't have. I just want that to be clear.

I noticed halfway through your reply you talked about screwing up point allotment, and I've narrowed it down. I don't think you've realized that a lot of the ideas in this thread are based upon getting rid of the point allotment system and making stat distribution be automatic based on equipped weapon spec.

And to be honest giving monk skills, abilities, and traits that pug doesn't have is a pretty easy feat, you have every final fantasy from 1 to draw ideas from. Kicking just being a primary one, white monks being another class to draw from. I really doubt getting new material for monk would be a big problem. Especially if they do implement a weapon spec that deals with maces and clubs.

[Kirith]

I noticed halfway through your reply you talked about screwing up point allotment, and I've narrowed it down. I don't think you've realized that a lot of the ideas in this thread are based upon getting rid of the point allotment system and making stat distribution be automatic based on equipped weapon spec.

And to be honest giving monk skills, abilities, and traits that pug doesn't have is a pretty easy feat, you have every final fantasy from 1 to draw ideas from. Kicking just being a primary one, white monks being another class to draw from. I really doubt getting new material for monk would be a big problem. Especially if they do implement a weapon spec that deals with maces and clubs.

Many ideas, but not OP's. Point allotment already goes into the balance topic so i'm not assuming it will be scrapped for sure, even though it probably will be anyway.

As i said earlier it's indeed not difficult to make some skills up. What i struggle to see is the point in leveling GLD or MRD with a "war" title, or a PUG with a "mnk" title considering that the classes already have most, if not all, the features the related jobs had in FFXI.
Yes, some people would go for leveling a generic fighting class, or for "pure hand to hand monk", but does it conceptually make sense to have a mnk using a lance with lancer skills and having few title-specific monk skills while you already have a PUG that looks and acts like a monk?

My basic idea is just to avoid potential awkward titles that feel and play redundantly with certain classes.

By extension i think removing stat bonuses to titles is the best way to do that: you can still keep OP's rationale, make specialized titles that excel at particular tasks and keep classes viable for casual or solo play styles.

All this keeping in mind that the current system exists to allow full customization not only to make playing classes more interesting, but also to allow casual players to be well-rounded in any circumstance.

Personally i wouldn't say a single negative word if they just copy-pasted FFXI strict role-specific jobs in ffxiv, but that's not gonna happen.

[Anathiel]

Many ideas, but not OP's. Point allotment already goes into the balance topic so i'm not assuming it will be scrapped for sure, even though it probably will be anyway.

As i said earlier it's indeed not difficult to make some skills up. What i struggle to see is the point in leveling GLD or MRD with a "war" title, or a PUG with a "mnk" title considering that the classes already have most, if not all, the features the related jobs had in FFXI.
Yes, some people would go for leveling a generic fighting class, or for "pure hand to hand monk", but does it conceptually make sense to have a mnk using a lance with lancer skills and having few title-specific monk skills while you already have a PUG that looks and acts like a monk?

My basic idea is just to avoid potential awkward titles that feel and play redundantly with certain classes.

By extension i think removing stat bonuses to titles is the best way to do that: you can still keep OP's rationale, make specialized titles that excel at particular tasks and keep classes viable for casual or solo play styles.

All this keeping in mind that the current system exists to allow full customization not only to make playing classes more interesting, but also to allow casual players to be well-rounded in any circumstance.

Personally i wouldn't say a single negative word if they just copy-pasted FFXI strict role-specific jobs in ffxiv, but that's not gonna happen.

But how could you keep open customization without being locked into any particular weapon specialization without using the stat bonus system? The reason I reccomended the stat bonus system was not only to encourage unlocking the advanced jobs, but to actually make them better than weapon specializations.

And to be honest it wouldn't be redundant, let's say the spec tree or grid for monk was DD, healing, and tanking (just for an example don't take it at what I really want) you couldn't just equip pugilist and excel at all three, you could put conj as a sub or gladiator as a sub. And honestly titles would have their own weapons or be able to use weapons regardless of weapon spec right? Or maybe have that be one of thbe tier unlocks. The ability to use your titles weapon on any class equipped after tier 2 or 3.

Lol, I really just want you to see the benefits of the stat bonus system. Its about leveling up your title, people won't feel they've actually leveled a job unless they see a dmg increase, or something like that.

I'd really like to know carpe's thoughts on the stat bonus when leveling to the next tier as part of a grid system that let's you choose your bonuses.