[dev1033] Ideas for a Two-Tier Class System: Jobs on Top of Weapon Specializations

[Kirith]

I noticed halfway through your reply you talked about screwing up point allotment, and I've narrowed it down. I don't think you've realized that a lot of the ideas in this thread are based upon getting rid of the point allotment system and making stat distribution be automatic based on equipped weapon spec.

And to be honest giving monk skills, abilities, and traits that pug doesn't have is a pretty easy feat, you have every final fantasy from 1 to draw ideas from. Kicking just being a primary one, white monks being another class to draw from. I really doubt getting new material for monk would be a big problem. Especially if they do implement a weapon spec that deals with maces and clubs.

Many ideas, but not OP's. Point allotment already goes into the balance topic so i'm not assuming it will be scrapped for sure, even though it probably will be anyway.

As i said earlier it's indeed not difficult to make some skills up. What i struggle to see is the point in leveling GLD or MRD with a "war" title, or a PUG with a "mnk" title considering that the classes already have most, if not all, the features the related jobs had in FFXI.
Yes, some people would go for leveling a generic fighting class, or for "pure hand to hand monk", but does it conceptually make sense to have a mnk using a lance with lancer skills and having few title-specific monk skills while you already have a PUG that looks and acts like a monk?

My basic idea is just to avoid potential awkward titles that feel and play redundantly with certain classes.

By extension i think removing stat bonuses to titles is the best way to do that: you can still keep OP's rationale, make specialized titles that excel at particular tasks and keep classes viable for casual or solo play styles.

All this keeping in mind that the current system exists to allow full customization not only to make playing classes more interesting, but also to allow casual players to be well-rounded in any circumstance.

Personally i wouldn't say a single negative word if they just copy-pasted FFXI strict role-specific jobs in ffxiv, but that's not gonna happen.

[IndigoDarkwolf]

Hi. I do not currently play Final Fantasy XIV, but I played in the beta. I really like your ideas for a two-tier class system, and I hope that the developers take them into consideration as they continue working on the game.

I was one of the players who was turned off by the class restructuring and renaming, partially because that made the game less connected to previous Final Fantasy titles, but also partially because the class descriptions made it non-intuitive what the roles of each class were supposed to be (though it seems that roles are kind of muddy right now anyways).

There's a lot that needs to change from the Beta before I would consider buying and subscribing to XIV, but this would absolutely be a step in the right direction.

[Anathiel]

Many ideas, but not OP's. Point allotment already goes into the balance topic so i'm not assuming it will be scrapped for sure, even though it probably will be anyway.

As i said earlier it's indeed not difficult to make some skills up. What i struggle to see is the point in leveling GLD or MRD with a "war" title, or a PUG with a "mnk" title considering that the classes already have most, if not all, the features the related jobs had in FFXI.
Yes, some people would go for leveling a generic fighting class, or for "pure hand to hand monk", but does it conceptually make sense to have a mnk using a lance with lancer skills and having few title-specific monk skills while you already have a PUG that looks and acts like a monk?

My basic idea is just to avoid potential awkward titles that feel and play redundantly with certain classes.

By extension i think removing stat bonuses to titles is the best way to do that: you can still keep OP's rationale, make specialized titles that excel at particular tasks and keep classes viable for casual or solo play styles.

All this keeping in mind that the current system exists to allow full customization not only to make playing classes more interesting, but also to allow casual players to be well-rounded in any circumstance.

Personally i wouldn't say a single negative word if they just copy-pasted FFXI strict role-specific jobs in ffxiv, but that's not gonna happen.

But how could you keep open customization without being locked into any particular weapon specialization without using the stat bonus system? The reason I reccomended the stat bonus system was not only to encourage unlocking the advanced jobs, but to actually make them better than weapon specializations.

And to be honest it wouldn't be redundant, let's say the spec tree or grid for monk was DD, healing, and tanking (just for an example don't take it at what I really want) you couldn't just equip pugilist and excel at all three, you could put conj as a sub or gladiator as a sub. And honestly titles would have their own weapons or be able to use weapons regardless of weapon spec right? Or maybe have that be one of thbe tier unlocks. The ability to use your titles weapon on any class equipped after tier 2 or 3.

Lol, I really just want you to see the benefits of the stat bonus system. Its about leveling up your title, people won't feel they've actually leveled a job unless they see a dmg increase, or something like that.

I'd really like to know carpe's thoughts on the stat bonus when leveling to the next tier as part of a grid system that let's you choose your bonuses.

[Cairdeas]

Nah that wont work Ana, The classes as they are are dedicated to the Weapon itself. They are Weapon Classes in the Disciplines which are part of the Armoury System.

[Anathiel]

Alright I went back and read the main post, and really the only problem I see is that, let's say I want to be an enfeebling drk I would use thau as my weapon...but its a staff...now we're losing class identity. Really the best solution to this is to make tier upgrade unlocks that give you a title specific weapon. Drk=scythe. Now, I didn't say that drk would be completely Limited to scythe but just be able to use it on a different weapoln spec that doesn't necessarily favor it. Thus the penalty system suggested in OP would apply to the scythe because of the thau weapon spec but you could still equip the scythe because you are a dark knight focusing in enfeebling. I'm sorry but I just can't get behind something that has a dark knight equipping a wand and using spirit dart when all your passive traits and abilities will be focused on melee...doesn't seem right to me lol, but maybe that's the sacrifice drk players will have to make to see a system as great as this implemented.

I hope I made myself clear on that one. Now, the other point I wanted to bring up is that there are indeed some weak points when considering monk and a title to benefit those who are content to stay gladiator/marauder. We could get rid of stat bonuses sure, but what does that really fix? Not a whole lot, the stat bonuses would've been dependant on the weapon spec equipped not the title, the title would just givee small percentage bonuses to give them that classic feel while still giving you the option to customize a job to be "out of the box". The problem inherently is that people will tend to think of the base classes now as classes and not weapon specializations.

When you think of pugilist as a h2h specialist and monk as a h2h expert it will seem a bit redundant. But its not, there are many types of swordsmen in the world, but I like to think that fencers and samurai are different. Why not do the same for monk? There are lots of different types of martial arts, monk might be more muay thai than karate in this sense.

[Nuru]

I had some time to think of how to make Advanced Jobs seem a bit more important than just stat bonuses. I was thinking that Jobs and Weapon Specialization could tie in a lot better too.

My idea is this:

Say you are a Pugilist. Your Pugilist Skill Affinity is already at 100%. You unlock the Monk Job and have that as your current job. Monk provides Pugilist Affinity +25%. Now all of your skills you use as a Pugilist will be boosted by 125% total.

I know that some guild marks in other classes can be spent to improve affinity as well. +10%
However, the cap on affinity should be removed, and placed at 250% or maybe even just 200%.

The way this ties into encouraging having a specific weapon per job is that if you were a Monk that had a Lance equipped. Your Pugilist Affinity will only be at 75%, and your Lance at 100%.

Jobs should also have a decrease in affinity due to this. Equipping a Lance doesn't affect the affinity at all, but it does keep at 100%, which is still higher than hand-to-hand skills. I say that Monk should be Favorable to Pugilist Affinity and decrease 25% affinity with any other weapon specializations.

So...

MONK
Hand-to-Hand
Favors: PUG + 50%

WARRIOR
Sword, Great Sword, Axe, Great Axe, Scythe, Spear, Shield
Favors: GLA + 50%, LNC + 25%, SEN + 50%, PUG + 25%

THIEF
Sword, (Daggers), Hand-to-Hand
Favors: GLA + 25%, (Daggers) + 50%, PUG + 25%

BLACK MAGE
Staves, Wands, Shield
Favors: CON + 50%, THM + 25%, SEN + 25%

WHITE MAGE
Staves, Wands, Shield
Favors: CON + 25%, THM + 50%, SEN + 25%

RED MAGE
Swords, Staves, Wands, Shield
Favors: GLA + 25%, CON + 25%, THM + 25%, SEN + 25%


All other weapon specializations stay at an affinity of 50%. Equipped or not. Unless Passive Trait is equipped to add 10% to any of them.

[Cairdeas]

As I said in a differnt thread. Dark Knights are not identified by Scyths. Scyths were only ever in FFXI and never again.

Dark Knights in the past used Swords, Shields, Staffs, Clubs, Great Swords, Axes, Great Axes, Spears, and Dark Swords. Scyth was an off shoot in XI.

I have a feeling if they Implement Scyths in XIV they should implement them as a type of Lance that has a high Magic Potency compared to other lances. So if you wanted to look like a DRK from XI you'd equip a Scyth Lance and the Dark Knight Job, then wear Evil Armor.

[Anathiel]

As I said in a differnt thread. Dark Knights are not identified by Scyths. Scyths were only ever in FFXI and never again.

Dark Knights in the past used Swords, Shields, Staffs, Clubs, Great Swords, Axes, Great Axes, Spears, and Dark Swords. Scyth was an off shoot in XI.

It was just an example. And in past ff titles besides ff:t dark knights were identified by blood/dark swords.

[Nuru]

As I said in a differnt thread. Dark Knights are not identified by Scyths. Scyths were only ever in FFXI and never again.

Dark Knights in the past used Swords, Shields, Staffs, Clubs, Great Swords, Axes, Great Axes, Spears, and Dark Swords. Scyth was an off shoot in XI.

I still see scythe as being a common weapon in an MMORPG, not sure myself if they plan to re-use it, but I'm not going to assume that they aren't.

[Cairdeas]

I still see scythe as being a common weapon in an MMORPG, not sure myself if they plan to re-use it, but I'm not going to assume that they aren't.

Uh... FFXI is the only game off the top of my head that had Scyths as a dedicated Weapon category. Most of the time they are one shots from Axe, Spear, or other long handled weapon.