When is PLD Getting Fixed So It Can Be a VIABLE Tank?

[Crysten]

It's more along the lines of "tanks generate threat/aggro/hate through DPS. Abilities supplement that unless the design focuses on ability spam." Between cooldowns and how TP works, PLD abilities lean more to the former than the latter. That's why PLDs in XI had to eventually rely on cure cheat macros to generate aggro, as the design pointed in one direction but gameplay took the job down another. It is also why emphasis by players was in DPS gear with stats like accuracy and +attack (up until -PDT was thrown around like candy, anyways).

You're comparing two systems that were entirely different with one of them (XI's) being horribly flawed. I will totally agree that in XI, PLD needed the DPS/low delay weapons to keep hate because that's basically how the system forced us to play (hit fast, keep at the enmity cap more often). As far as I understand the system right now, there is no enmity cap and hate doesn't decay as much as it did in XI, but feel free to correct me if I'm misunderstanding this.

This puts XIV PLD square in the "abilty spam" area - the amount of hate abilities it has compared to WAR means that there're going to be very few instances you'll be actively DPSing unless you're doing something horribly wrong.

And I am staunchly against the whole "let's not invite another healer because we have a PLD in group". Firstly because that will bork encounter design and balance down the road, and make it more difficult on the developer's end when they have to design damage output, mechanics and abilities on multiple party set ups that play very differently. Secondly, it hints groups will start expecting the PLD to pick up the slack, and as I've been mentioning here for a while, if I'm on PLD I'm there to tank, not to do part of the healer's job.

And your argument falls flat on it's face. 3/5 abilities that PLD gets focus around party support and protection. Holy Succor heals two people at once. Cover (outside of MP whoring) is a last gasp protection. Divine Veil allows a Regen for your entire party. If you're claiming to me with a straight face that PLD isn't designed to be somewhat akin to a back up healer in the absolute worst case scenario, then I've no idea what to tell you.

It sounds to me like you're just wanting a faceroll tank and a DPS tank to play, and you don't wish to play PLD a certain way. That's cool, but your MRD/WAR is level 20 - you'd better hop to it cos I know what job you need to level next.

TLR - what you envision PLD is and want it to be are completely different to the way the class is currently designed to be. There are two viable tanks now - you've just levelled the wrong one.

[Colino]

I'm in agreement with Crysten.

I mean I'm no tanking expert but as far as I know the big PLD/WAR difference is that bringing a PLD along SOMETIMES can allow you to run with one less WHM, which is quite useful. I just don't see many people doing it out of fear (and it does make PLD even harder to play).

[Dzian]

as far as I know the big PLD/WAR difference is that bringing a PLD along SOMETIMES can allow you to run with one less WHM, which is quite useful.

A problem with this is when people already have been and still do run things WAR WHM 6xDD.
Does that then mean with a Paladin you can run PLD 7xDD? (1 less WHM)

Don't get me wrong I love the changes they've made to PLD but with it's current MP it cant really act as anything more than an "oh sh**!!" healer on anyone other than him/herself.

Paladin is alot better but Outmanouvere Cover and Wardrum and still fairly cack. The reasons for which have been mentioned more times than i care to count.
Ex 1 ,Ex 2 And countless more.

[Colino]

A problem with this is when people already have been and still do run things WAR WHM 6xDD.
Does that then mean with a Paladin you can run PLD 7xDD (1 less WHM)

Don't get me wrong I love the changes they've made to PLD but with it's current MP it cant really act as anything more than an "oh sh**!!" healer on anyone other than him/herself.

Paladin is alot better but Outmanouvere Cover and Wardrum and still fairly cack. The reasons for which have been mentioned more times than i care to count.

Yeah fair enough, I understand if you're used to running with just 1 WHM already bringing the PLD won't benefit you much if at all.

[Chardrizard]

A problem with this is when people already have been and still do run things WAR WHM 6xDD.
Does that then mean with a Paladin you can run PLD 7xDD? (1 less WHM)

Don't get me wrong I love the changes they've made to PLD but with it's current MP it cant really act as anything more than an "oh sh**!!" healer on anyone other than him/herself.

Paladin is alot better but Outmanouvere Cover and Wardrum and still fairly cack. The reasons for which have been mentioned more times than i care to count.
Ex 1 ,Ex 2 And countless more.

I really want to know on what instance you regularly only brings 1 WHM.

[Dzian]

big difference between regularly and possibly of which a huge contributing factor is how many people in the group do i know or trust.. personally solo healed ifrit mog batraal... still quite new to av cc and stuff but i run things with friends more than simply hardcore grind the crap out of everything.

buttttt when you flick through the hundreds (and there probably are hundreds by now) of topics about pld-war it's seemingly very common for the more hardcore groups to run 1whm.

[Eagleheart]

No one ever has an answer prepared when the "Why does Paladin enable the replacement of a White Mage in the party roster on a run?" question is trotted out. I say this without any rancor, the subject comes up often, and it always ends in the same way.

The meme survives by the question not being answered. Garuda is established. <.< No one ever has an answer for any other event. Once I've seen the a reply along the lines of "Well, take a Paladin and a Thaumaturge instead of a Black Mage, and you can fit in an extra bard and you've replaced the White Mage", but that is not actually Paladin enabling the switch.

The cardinal rule to remember here is that you do not bring a second White Mage for the tank, be it Warrior or Paladin.

You bring a second White Mage for the party.

[Skies]

No one ever has an answer prepared when the "Why does Paladin enable the replacement of a White Mage in the party roster on a run?" question is trotted out. I say this without any rancor, the subject comes up often, and it always ends in the same way.

The meme survives by the question not being answered. Garuda is established. <.< No one ever has an answer for any other event. Once I've seen the a reply along the lines of "Well, take a Paladin and a Thaumaturge instead of a Black Mage, and you can fit in an extra bard and you've replaced the White Mage", but that is not actually Paladin enabling the switch.

The cardinal rule to remember here is that you do not bring a second White Mage for the tank, be it Warrior or Paladin.

You bring a second White Mage for the party.

Theoretically, and I cannot speak from experience here, but according to what i've seen answered and what would be most logical.
Is that you don't replace the party's white mage. You replace the Tank's white mage.

Although on a melee heavy environ, the Paladin would have sufficient healing capacity to off-heal and thus take up party healing duty from the second white mage, because they wouldn't be getting damage too often to begin with.

[Eagleheart]

Theoretically, and I cannot speak from experience here, but according to what i've seen answered and what would be most logical.
Is that you don't replace the party's white mage. You replace the Tank's white mage.

Although on a melee heavy environ, the Paladin would have sufficient healing capacity to off-heal and thus take up party healing duty from the second white mage, because they wouldn't be getting damage too often to begin with.

Paladin survivability is not sufficient to be independent of a dedicated healer.

Paladin MP is insufficient to maintain the party's HP pool for any appreciable length of time, and by appreciable, I mean after the first minute and a half, considering an ether and some Ballad in the mix.

The Paladin in question would also be hit by whatever AOEs are damaging the melee, necessitating healing the Paladin themselves, as well as the melee.

Paladin does not have three thousand MP, or the capacity to rest MP during safe periods in an extended engagement. Paladin is supposed to be redline hate, so they cannot rest for MP, and if the Paladin is not redline hate, then they are a waste of a party slot, better served by a Bard (healing, DDing, actual support capability) or a straight-up DD (superior damage output), or, amusingly, a second White Mage, who will deal superior damage with superior MP restoration capacity, and vastly superior healing capacity.

That line of reasoning is unworkable. ._.

[Zantetsuken]

Paladin survivability is not sufficient to be independent of a dedicated healer.

Paladin MP is insufficient to maintain the party's HP pool for any appreciable length of time, and by appreciable, I mean after the first minute and a half, considering an ether and some Ballad in the mix.

The Paladin in question would also be hit by whatever AOEs are damaging the melee, necessitating healing the Paladin themselves, as well as the melee.

Paladin does not have three thousand MP, or the capacity to rest MP during safe periods in an extended engagement. Paladin is supposed to be redline hate, so they cannot rest for MP, and if the Paladin is not redline hate, then they are a waste of a party slot, better served by a Bard (healing, DDing, actual support capability) or a straight-up DD (superior damage output), or, amusingly, a second White Mage, who will deal superior damage with superior MP restoration capacity, and vastly superior healing capacity.

That line of reasoning is unworkable. ._.

You don't sub out your 2nd WHM for just anything.. you need to sub it for a BRD.

BRD is solid DD, it can refresh PLD MP, and it can do spot healing on the PLD if needed.

The true comparison is:

WAR+(2nd)WHM
-vs-
PLD+BRD

If designed properly, PLD+BRD should survive better, do more damage, and hold hate better than WAR+WHM vs Single IT++ boss mobs (Garuda, Ifrit, Coin Counter, Chimera, etc..)

We already know that WAR+WHM owns battles vs groups of VT mobs - and they should. It's their role.