When is PLD Getting Fixed So It Can Be a VIABLE Tank?

[Duelle]

But then when is a class at an acceptable level? When any shmuck can pick up the job and do great with little to no effort?

This is where things get subjective. Your sig tells me you're on one end of the spectrum. I happen to be somewhere between the middle and the other end of the spectrum, because (to me) designing a role in a way more people are willing to do it is not a bad thing. Not to mention a bigger tank and healer pool is never a bad thing, either.

The more people willing to take up the mantle of tank or healer, the better. I say that as a prot warrior that saw grandpas and elderly aunts main tank dungeons and raids. Having more people able to take the role made me lots of things; unhappy was not one of them.

You don't fix one class fucking another. And that's what happened. If it keeps like that, we will start hearing: " please nerf pld" in a few more weeks.

Please elaborate. If you mean the WAR nerf, only the misinformed were wanting to see WAR nerfed. Some even made claims wanting to remove WAR tanking so that PLD would then be forced on everyone. That's not what a good number of us wanted. I personally wanted PLD buffed to about WAR's level, because I understand that in an IP with more than 20 possible job classes, you can't make one or two classes the only tanks in the damn game.

[Kaizlu]

Please elaborate. If you mean the WAR nerf, only the idiots who can't see beyond their noses were wanting to see WAR nerfed. Some even made claims wanting to remove WAR tanking so that PLD would then be forced on everyone. That's not what a good number of us wanted. I personally wanted PLD buffed to about WAR's level, because I understand that in an IP with more than 20 possible job classes, you can't make one or two classes the only tanks in the damn game.

Tell me, how can a job that can take on at least 10 or more high level mobs (I'm talking about Natalan here) without much effort be "balanced"?

[Duelle]

Tell me, how can a job that can take on at least 10 or more high level mobs (I'm talking about Natalan here) without much effort be "balanced"?

Complicated issue involving level correction (which has a slew of other problems). This is on top of tank design on WAR having an easier time against it between ease of AoE tanking and abilities available to them. PLD on the other hand is stuck with a reactionary ability whenever Flash is on cooldown, and everything else being single-target. I know exactly what the devs went for with this, but also know they failed to realize that when you have groups of mobs involved in anything, combined with speed runs and so on, the guy that holds hate and does more damage is gonna win.

This is why whenever you have tanks, parity is VERY important because otherwise you get exactly what has been happening, in people using one and ignoring the other (this is actually true for any role, because DPS and healers can also suffer from this problem). Tanks can have styles and flavors, but hate and DPS has to be about even or within a reasonable range...well, that is provided you want an actual roster of tanks in-game rather than niche gameplay where one is useful for one thing and the other is useful elsewhere.

Note: I'll retract the affectionate adjective I used on the nerf-callers, admittedly because it was aimed at the latter group I mentioned (the guys that wanted WAR tanking nerfed to notable inferiority and/or outright removal of WAR tanking).

[Firon]

Complicated issue involving level correction (which has a slew of other problems). This is on top of tank design on WAR having an easier time against it between ease of AoE tanking and abilities available to them. PLD on the other hand is stuck with a reactionary ability whenever Flash is on cooldown, and everything else being single-target. I know exactly what the devs went for with this, but also know they failed to realize that when you have groups of mobs involved in anything, combined with speed runs and so on, the guy that holds hate and does more damage is gonna win.

This is why whenever you have tanks, parity is VERY important because otherwise you get exactly what has been happening, in people using one and ignoring the other (this is actually true for any role, because DPS and healers can also suffer from this problem). Tanks can have styles and flavors, but hate and DPS has to be about even or within a reasonable range...well, that is provided you want an actual roster of tanks in-game rather than niche gameplay where one is useful for one thing and the other is useful elsewhere.

Note: I'll retract the affectionate adjective I used on the nerf-callers, admittedly because it was aimed at the latter group I mentioned (the guys that wanted WAR tanking nerfed to notable inferiority and/or outright removal of WAR tanking).

I usually agree with a lot of what you say but SC was too OP killing 8 mobs at once is retarded for any class. Blm could probably do that if they are lucky.

[Duelle]

I usually agree with a lot of what you say but SC was too OP killing 8 mobs at once is retarded for any class. Blm could probably do that if they are lucky.

I find it hard to justify nerfs once the class is out the gate. Partly because I know the discrepancy was intentional since the beginning, not to mention that once its in the hands of the players unless the class itself is borking the very core of balance (like NIN tanks did in FFXI) it's obviously going to be involved with not fixing or changing the other classes much. Then you end up with WAR nerfs instead of PLD buffs.

What really annoys me about this sort of thing is that we have people who already think PLD is fixed and perfect, whereas as I mentioned earlier in this thread, PLD has taken a step in the right direction but it is far from fixed. You still have DPS discrepancy (don't know how to fix this outside of redesigning GLA traits to have them get at least one Enhanced Physical Attack Power trait or perhaps increasing base damage of all swords), lack of more AoE (which would be fixed by a direct buff+lowered cooldown to War Drum and bringing back Circle Slash) and need for slightly better enmity generation (which would most likely be fixed if you increased DPS and AoE capabilities).

[Firon]

I find it hard to justify nerfs once the class is out the gate. Partly because I know the discrepancy was intentional since the beginning, not to mention that once its in the hands of the players unless the class itself is borking the very core of balance (like NIN tanks did in FFXI) it's obviously going to be involved with not fixing or changing the other classes much. Then you end up with WAR nerfs instead of PLD buffs.

What really annoys me about this sort of thing is that we have people who already think PLD is fixed and perfect, whereas as I mentioned earlier in this thread, PLD has taken a step in the right direction but it is far from fixed. You still have DPS discrepancy (don't know how to fix this outside of redesigning GLA traits to have them get at least one Enhanced Physical Attack Power trait or perhaps increasing base damage of all swords), lack of more AoE (which would be fixed by a direct buff+lowered cooldown to War Drum and bringing back Circle Slash) and need for slightly better enmity generation (which would most likely be fixed if you increased DPS and AoE capabilities).

How can you justify a Job which is not meant to solo for one. Killing 8 Lvl. 51-54 mobs by Him/Herself? Also they didn't nerfed a nerf is taking away from a char not giving it nothing else. They reduced the SC dmg but Raised its single target DPS.

[Duelle]

How can you justify a Job which is not meant to solo for one. Killing 8 Lvl. 51-54 mobs by Him/Herself? Also they didn't nerfed a nerf is taking away from a char not giving it nothing else. They reduced the SC dmg but Raised its single target DPS.

Well, I admit that what I was hoping for, if anything, was for a hard line between DPS and tank WAR. But more along the lines of you entering an encounter geared to tank and that's all you were there for; I believe I even undug the stance ideas I had for MRD several months ago when it came up. Maybe I've misunderstood the changes, but that's not what was given to us by the devs.

[Daniel_Fury]

Please elaborate. If you mean the WAR nerf, only the idiots who can't see beyond their noses were wanting to see WAR nerfed. Some even made claims wanting to remove WAR tanking so that PLD would then be forced on everyone. That's not what a good number of us wanted. I personally wanted PLD buffed to about WAR's level, because I understand that in an IP with more than 20 possible job classes, you can't make one or two classes the only tanks in the damn game.

The Steel Cyclone nerf was completely justified because it was completely broken.

No job should be able to roll up to a party spot, take everything, kill it all with a full HP bar after.

It still tanks, it still DPS's whle tanking, it just now requires somewhat a little bit of skill to play it since the nerf.

It also gives the option of being either a DPS or Tank, not a tank with DPS like damage.

[Dawiichan]

This is where things get subjective. Your sig tells me you're on one end of the spectrum. I happen to be somewhere between the middle and the other end of the spectrum, because (to me) designing a role in a way more people are willing to do it is not a bad thing. Not to mention a bigger tank and healer pool is never a bad thing, either.

The more people willing to take up the mantle of tank or healer, the better. I say that as a prot warrior that saw grandpas and elderly aunts main tank dungeons and raids. Having more people able to take the role made me lots of things; unhappy was not one of them.

Please elaborate. If you mean the WAR nerf, only the misinformed were wanting to see WAR nerfed. Some even made claims wanting to remove WAR tanking so that PLD would then be forced on everyone. That's not what a good number of us wanted. I personally wanted PLD buffed to about WAR's level, because I understand that in an IP with more than 20 possible job classes, you can't make one or two classes the only tanks in the damn game.

No, Warrior's tanking capabilities definitely needed a nerf. Warrior was like rolling your face on the keyboard and when you look up the monsters are dead. Now warrior can DD better and they can do a dry steel cyclone for cheaper cost in exchange for losing the over-powered damage. That is unless you think needing skill to tank against DDs that are going all out is unacceptable.