When is PLD Getting Fixed So It Can Be a VIABLE Tank?

[AceofRains]

If I could pick one thing to change for paladin it wouldn't be paladin directly. It would be conjurer's Sacred Prism. Instead of that wild description I'd like it to simply change all single-target recovery and enhancing spells to AoE.

Isn't that essentialy what it does? Plus they cant make ALL enhancing spells apply to it, I mean for the most part the do, but say a new enhancing spell comes out and they DONT want it usable under sacred prism, thus they have to specify what you can use. Idk I think?

[Soulfire]

Isn't that essentialy what it does? Plus they cant make ALL enhancing spells apply to it, I mean for the most part the do, but say a new enhancing spell comes out and they DONT want it usable under sacred prism, thus they have to specify what you can use. Idk I think?

I was kinda throwing that out there as it's been playing in my head for a while now. (And the change to Sacred Prism's description struck me as ridiculous.) I like the ideas you guys posted as well, though. I was picking something semi-conservative with a bit of strategic potential, but I'd love for more.

[Chardrizard]

Maybe they need to nerf WHM too because they can solo lv59 NM. NURF IT NURFFFFF

[BruceyBruceyBangBang]

Maybe they need to nerf WHM too because they can solo lv59 NM. NURF IT NURFFFFF

LOL Yeah man, I think it's kind of funny WHM has been coming up a lot now as a good soloer. This has always been the case back when they made class changes and CON solo was practically the new THM solo. People are just finding this out NOW?

[Skies]

Duelle, you need to understand there that Warrior wasn't nerfed at all, merely it's two stances became more 'focused' in their tasks, DPSing and Tanking. Also need to realize how Paladin and Warrior both have a unique difference on how they tank: Warrior can easily tank a large number of mobs but Paladin outshines him on a single one (not saying that Paladin is perfect right now but just mentioning the difference I see according to what people say on those forums)

However, I will mention one small gripe I have with you. You seem to think that Paladin needs DPS for some reason, whereas it seems to run counter to what the design intent is, very low damage, very high tanking skills. DPS is the one thing that Paladin doesn't needs, although it would probably be pretty good to enhance it's raw enmity skills.

[Duelle]

Duelle, you need to understand there that Warrior wasn't nerfed at all, merely it's two stances became more 'focused' in their tasks, DPSing and Tanking. Also need to realize how Paladin and Warrior both have a unique difference on how they tank: Warrior can easily tank a large number of mobs but Paladin outshines him on a single one (not saying that Paladin is perfect right now but just mentioning the difference I see according to what people say on those forums)

Which therefore implies niche tanking, which WILL rear its ugly head more than it already has the further down the line we go. And sadly, XIV, doesn't have the "habit vs game mechanics" conflict that would at least have people say "okay, our PuG will invite that PLD to tank because I equate PLD to tank even though WAR does a pretty damn good job and is better AoE to boot".

However, I will mention one small gripe I have with you. You seem to think that Paladin needs DPS for some reason, whereas it seems to run counter to what the design intent is, very low damage, very high tanking skills. DPS is the one thing that Paladin doesn't needs, although it would probably be pretty good to enhance it's raw enmity skills.

The short of it is a that tank DPS matters.

The long version of it is that I would have never brought the point of PLD DPS up were it not for the fact that between the weapons involved (sword vs great axe), there is a notable discrepancy. I've mentioned it in other threads, but if WAR tanking was one-handed axe and shield, I would see no issue because then you can justify both classes doing low damage because their design would then focus on enmity gain. Instead you have a guy with a really big axe doing notably more damage than the guy with a sword plinking away at the mob.

You obviously can't reduce great axe damage to bring it to sword level. Therefore the alternative is find a way to increase sword guy's DPS in some way to bring it within reasonable range. Because tank DPS matters, if you leave sword guy weak 2-handed guy is going to win, which is exactly what has been happening.

I'd love to be able to bring up examples, but I never tanked on a Death Knight in WoW so I really have no idea how that game managed to balance the DPS/threat/aggro playing field between sword&board Warrior and 2-handed weapon Death Knight. I know it's possible (because it happened and I've tanked alongside DKs), but I've never seen the methodology first hand. All I know is that the DPS gap was not sizeable enough to force the group to take a DK over a Warrior, and that's the same dynamic I want to see here.

[1clou]

The only thing I would like changed as of right now since PLD's skill set and abilities are more a less where they should be; is its HP adjusted so it has more of a pool to work with. Having a larger HP pool would definitely help with mp generation which is great as it is, but with more hp to possible have topped off it would enable you to fully maximize enmity generation for holy succor and still have 1 whm mildly toss cure 1's instead of cure bombing Cure II's because if your anything but topped off and a ability is down, your dead.

[Crysten]

You seem to have it in your head that DPS is the only way to generate enmity, or at least, that's what your overall stance tells me. The common thought is that "PLD can't DPS, therefore it can't be a tank." The correct answer is "PLD can generate more than enough enmity through it's actions that DDs don't have to hold back and have enough survivability in a lot of situations to allow an extra DPS over a second WHM."

They're two distinct tanking styles right now. A WAR's tanking style is based more around generating enmity through it's own (and with Collusion, other's) damage at the cost of less defensive power. A PLD has a much higher enmity ceiling and more survivability post 1.22a but at the cost of less overall DPS from itself. There are pros and cons to each, now. Several LS and players have more than proven post update that current content, even speed runs, can be achieved with a PLD and a WAR tank.

While the jobs could probably use a little tweaking, there are very few instances where I'd take a PLD over a WAR and vice versa right now.

[Duelle]

You seem to have it in your head that DPS is the only way to generate enmity, or at least, that's what your overall stance tells me. The common thought is that "PLD can't DPS, therefore it can't be a tank." The correct answer is "PLD can generate more than enough enmity through it's actions that DDs don't have to hold back and have enough survivability in a lot of situations to allow an extra DPS over a second WHM."

It's more along the lines of "tanks generate threat/aggro/hate through DPS. Abilities supplement that unless the design focuses on ability spam." Between cooldowns and how TP works, PLD abilities lean more to the former than the latter. That's why PLDs in XI had to eventually rely on cure cheat macros to generate aggro, as the design pointed in one direction but gameplay took the job down another. It is also why emphasis by players was in DPS gear with stats like accuracy and +attack (up until -PDT was thrown around like candy, anyways).

And I am staunchly against the whole "let's not invite another healer because we have a PLD in group". Firstly because that will bork encounter design and balance down the road, and make it more difficult on the developer's end when they have to design damage output, mechanics and abilities on multiple party set ups that play very differently. Secondly, it hints groups will start expecting the PLD to pick up the slack, and as I've been mentioning here for a while, if I'm on PLD I'm there to tank, not to do part of the healer's job.

They're two distinct tanking styles right now. A WAR's tanking style is based more around generating enmity through it's own (and with Collusion, other's) damage at the cost of less defensive power. A PLD has a much higher enmity ceiling and more survivability post 1.22a but at the cost of less overall DPS from itself.

This is dangerously close to niche tanking. You already know how I feel about that, so I'll not repeat myself.

[Crysten]

It's more along the lines of "tanks generate threat/aggro/hate through DPS. Abilities supplement that unless the design focuses on ability spam." Between cooldowns and how TP works, PLD abilities lean more to the former than the latter. That's why PLDs in XI had to eventually rely on cure cheat macros to generate aggro, as the design pointed in one direction but gameplay took the job down another. It is also why emphasis by players was in DPS gear with stats like accuracy and +attack (up until -PDT was thrown around like candy, anyways).

You're comparing two systems that were entirely different with one of them (XI's) being horribly flawed. I will totally agree that in XI, PLD needed the DPS/low delay weapons to keep hate because that's basically how the system forced us to play (hit fast, keep at the enmity cap more often). As far as I understand the system right now, there is no enmity cap and hate doesn't decay as much as it did in XI, but feel free to correct me if I'm misunderstanding this.

This puts XIV PLD square in the "abilty spam" area - the amount of hate abilities it has compared to WAR means that there're going to be very few instances you'll be actively DPSing unless you're doing something horribly wrong.

And I am staunchly against the whole "let's not invite another healer because we have a PLD in group". Firstly because that will bork encounter design and balance down the road, and make it more difficult on the developer's end when they have to design damage output, mechanics and abilities on multiple party set ups that play very differently. Secondly, it hints groups will start expecting the PLD to pick up the slack, and as I've been mentioning here for a while, if I'm on PLD I'm there to tank, not to do part of the healer's job.

And your argument falls flat on it's face. 3/5 abilities that PLD gets focus around party support and protection. Holy Succor heals two people at once. Cover (outside of MP whoring) is a last gasp protection. Divine Veil allows a Regen for your entire party. If you're claiming to me with a straight face that PLD isn't designed to be somewhat akin to a back up healer in the absolute worst case scenario, then I've no idea what to tell you.

It sounds to me like you're just wanting a faceroll tank and a DPS tank to play, and you don't wish to play PLD a certain way. That's cool, but your MRD/WAR is level 20 - you'd better hop to it cos I know what job you need to level next.

TLR - what you envision PLD is and want it to be are completely different to the way the class is currently designed to be. There are two viable tanks now - you've just levelled the wrong one.