When is PLD Getting Fixed So It Can Be a VIABLE Tank?

[Colino]

I'm in agreement with Crysten.

I mean I'm no tanking expert but as far as I know the big PLD/WAR difference is that bringing a PLD along SOMETIMES can allow you to run with one less WHM, which is quite useful. I just don't see many people doing it out of fear (and it does make PLD even harder to play).

[Dzian]

as far as I know the big PLD/WAR difference is that bringing a PLD along SOMETIMES can allow you to run with one less WHM, which is quite useful.

A problem with this is when people already have been and still do run things WAR WHM 6xDD.
Does that then mean with a Paladin you can run PLD 7xDD? (1 less WHM)

Don't get me wrong I love the changes they've made to PLD but with it's current MP it cant really act as anything more than an "oh sh**!!" healer on anyone other than him/herself.

Paladin is alot better but Outmanouvere Cover and Wardrum and still fairly cack. The reasons for which have been mentioned more times than i care to count.
Ex 1 ,Ex 2 And countless more.

[Duelle]

You're comparing two systems that were entirely different with one of them (XI's) being horribly flawed. I will totally agree that in XI, PLD needed the DPS/low delay weapons to keep hate because that's basically how the system forced us to play (hit fast, keep at the enmity cap more often). As far as I understand the system right now, there is no enmity cap and hate doesn't decay as much as it did in XI, but feel free to correct me if I'm misunderstanding this.

The reason I bring up the system from XI is because the intent for XIV's PLD at the moment keeps that design in mind and used it as a base/inspiration.

This puts XIV PLD square in the "abilty spam" area - the amount of hate abilities it has compared to WAR means that there're going to be very few instances you'll be actively DPSing unless you're doing something horribly wrong.

I disagree here. Cooldowns are too long for that. Ability spam would be more like if War Drum was on a shorter cooldown, we had an additional AoE to use for groups of mobs, had probably one non-comboable ability on a short cooldown that could be used when nothing else is up and the class was not reliant on what would count as cooldowns in any other game (Sentinel, Rampart). If I wanted to finish copying prot warriors (which was largely the base for GLA and PLD gameplay), we should also get a proc that resets the cooldown of one of the abilities in our rotation.

And your argument falls flat on it's face. 3/5 abilities that PLD gets focus around party support and protection. Holy Succor heals two people at once. Cover (outside of MP whoring) is a last gasp protection. Divine Veil allows a Regen for your entire party. If you're claiming to me with a straight face that PLD isn't designed to be somewhat akin to a back up healer in the absolute worst case scenario, then I've no idea what to tell you.

There's a massive difference between supplemental healing and the tank doing part of the healer's job. The thing about that is supplemental healing is very much doable, provided you're ranged or melee DPS because you have less to look out for than the tank does, the fact that supplemental means that the party doesn't get screwed if you don't/can't do it notwithstanding.

Trust me, that is going to butt heads with encounter design if they decide to make fights a lot more complex on the tank, which I hope they do. If they made Holy Succor instant-cast and gave it a longer cooldown, I might consider making suggestions on how to improve that part of the design. The developers have to take that first step, though.

It sounds to me like you're just wanting a faceroll tank and a DPS tank to play, and you don't wish to play PLD a certain way.

You needlessly attempt to hurl insults. I don't want a faceroll tank. What I want is a tank that makes sense while keeping in mind that PLD and WAR have to be interchangable, along with any future additions to the tanking roster. And I mean interchangeable in PUGs and LS groups for all content. The same goes for healers and DPS.

Instead, what we have is an attempt at a tank/healer hybrid, which goes against the first point (tanks being interchangable) and is going to cause trouble when content gets more difficult and when the developers start tossing in mechanics that affect the tank during boss fights (which again, I definitely want them to do). I agree with PLD having access to healing in some way, because that does come with the job (hence the access to Cure, Raise, Protect and Stoneskin).

That being said, I'll stand by my point on supplemental healing. Let the healers do their job. The tank is there to hold the mob and not die. And telling me to go play another job is not going to make that any less true.

[Eagleheart]

The reason I bring up the system from XI is because the intent for XIV's PLD at the moment keeps that design in mind and used it as a base/inspiration.
I disagree here. Cooldowns are too long for that. Ability spam would be more like if War Drum was on a shorter cooldown, we had an additional AoE to use for groups of mobs, had probably one non-comboable ability on a short cooldown that could be used when nothing else is up and the class was not reliant on what would count as cooldowns in any other game (Sentinel, Rampart). If I wanted to finish copying prot warriors (which was largely the base for GLA and PLD gameplay), we should also get a proc that resets the cooldown of one of the abilities in our rotation.
There's a massive difference between supplemental healing and the tank doing part of the healer's job. The thing about that is supplemental healing is very much doable, provided you're ranged or melee DPS because you have less to look out for than the tank does, the fact that supplemental means that the party doesn't get screwed if you don't/can't do it notwithstanding.

Trust me, that is going to butt heads with encounter design if they decide to make fights a lot more complex on the tank, which I hope they do. If they made Holy Succor instant-cast and gave it a longer cooldown, I might consider making suggestions on how to improve that part of the design. The developers have to take that first step, though.

You needlessly attempt to hurl insults. I don't want a faceroll tank. What I want is a tank that makes sense while keeping in mind that PLD and WAR have to be interchangable, along with any future additions to the tanking roster. And I mean interchangeable in PUGs and LS groups for all content. The same goes for healers and DPS.

Instead, what we have is an attempt at a tank/healer hybrid, which goes against the first point (tanks being interchangable) and is going to cause trouble when content gets more difficult and when the developers start tossing in mechanics that affect the tank during boss fights (which again, I definitely want them to do). I agree with PLD having access to healing in some way, because that does come with the job (hence the access to Cure, Raise, Protect and Stoneskin).

That being said, I'll stand by my point on supplemental healing. Let the healers do their job. The tank is there to hold the mob and not die. And telling me to go play another job is not going to make that any less true.

(*'-') Another fine post in a steady line of fine posts. Carry on, good sir.

[Skies]

Thank you, Crysten. I do not have the sufficient language skills to explain my own point as well as you have explained it.

Once again, not saying that the Paladin and Warrior are both perfect as it is, there's a ways to go still (but i'm not sufficiently smart to tell where to go, though), but you're certainly running counter to the design spirit of the two jobs, Duelle.

[YuriSan]

Ok lets try this:

If you are on the side that says PLD is broken.
Could u please type the exact rotation of the skills,
How do u start tanking? how do u proceed? what skills u use when and such.

Some PLD can show what u doing wrong.
Cause u obviously are.

[Molly_Millions]

Ok lets try this:

If you are on the side that says PLD is broken.
Could u please type the exact rotation of the skills,
How do u start tanking? how do u proceed? what skills u use when and such.

Some PLD can show what u doing wrong.
Cause u obviously are.

the start of the fight should go something like this:

1. Maddening pot
2. Rampart
3. Provoke
4. Sentinel
5. Flat Blade Combo
6. Flash

Throw a Divine Veil or Hallowed Ground in there for even more enmity. It also helps to have enmity materia on your sword and belt and enmity+ everywhere it's possible.

If the BLMs nuke during all of this, it's not the PLDs (or even SE's) fault the tank doesn't have aggro, it's the BLM that nuked. If you want them to nuke form the get go, they better all pop nerve drops first.

[Alerith]

the start of the fight should go something like this:

1. Maddening pot
2. Rampart
3. Provoke
4. Sentinel
5. Flat Blade Combo
6. Flash

Throw a Divine Veil or Hallowed Ground in there for even more enmity. It also helps to have enmity materia on your sword and belt and enmity+ everywhere it's possible.

If the BLMs nuke during all of this, it's not the PLDs (or even SE's) fault the tank doesn't have aggro, it's the BLM that nuked. If you want them to nuke form the get go, they better all pop nerve drops first.

I must respectfully disagree.

1. Maddening Potion
2. Provoke
3. Aegis Boon
4. Phalanx
5. Spirit's Within
6. Flash
7. Divine Veil
8. War Drum
9. Provoke
10. Fast/Flat Blade Combo

*Rampart can be placed anywhere when your melee are in range and it won't potentially interrupt a combo.

EDIT:

This will allow your mages to start nuking from the get go. You still run the risk of ripping enmity off the tank, but as you said, it's up to the mages to determine whether it's safe to nuke or not. If you decide to Thundara while in the red, that's your bad, not the tanks.

[YuriSan]

I must respectfully disagree.

1. Maddening Potion
2. Provoke
3. Aegis Boon
4. Phalanx
5. Spirit's Within
6. Flash
7. Divine Veil
8. War Drum
9. Provoke
10. Fast/Flat Blade Combo

*Rampart can be placed anywhere when your melee are in range and it won't potentially interrupt a combo.

EDIT:

This will allow your mages to start nuking from the get go. You still run the risk of ripping enmity off the tank, but as you said, it's up to the mages to determine whether it's safe to nuke or not. If you decide to Thundara while in the red, that's your bad, not the tanks.

Right after Aegis u can pop both War Drum and the spirits within combo without the need of another block.
Also dont forget sentinel before voke and flash or even flat blade combo.

Sentinel + flash + voke + Rampart on all 8 members of pt = dead serious killer hate!!!
Like Megatron's hate for Prime... u know?

[Alerith]

Right after Aegis u can pop both War Drum and the spirits within combo without the need of another block.

While the timing allows that, you may not have TP to do both since you are doing this from the very start of the fight. That's why I don't Aegis Boon before I engage the mob. I want to be sure I have at least enough or close to enough TP for Phalanx.