PLD vs WAR: testing

[Hyrist]

It's overlooked because off-healing as part of a tank's job is a very bad idea. Between sub-targetting sucking horribly on keyboard+mouse and lack of mouseover macros, you as the tank cannot afford the distraction of looking at health bars and tossing heals.

That second WHM should be non-negotiable. I just hope encounters can justify having more than one tank and more than one healer in a group as time goes by, otherwise there will be problems because of this attempt at distinction.

Not to mention, the second setence has situational written all over it, which we don't need. PLD and WAR, as well as WHM and whatever other healer they put into the game, have to be interchangable. Otherwise we give way for preferred jobs and leaving people out in the cold.

Dulle, you should know as well as I do that White Mage is quintessential healer for a FF game. Any other job with healing capacities will likely see it function similar to the way Bard's healing functions, at least until they figure out a way to make Dancer's functions work within the armory system.

Warrior has function as a DD as well as a tank, so it's place is secure regardless of the PLD. It's the second WHM who's effectively taking the Paladin's place in this regard, while people wrongly see it as a competition between Warrior and Paladin.

7 Classes, 8 Slots, and people are bringing 4 of them on average - there is a lot more wrong than simply how much damage your tank is doing.

Currently, there are two primary divisions in tanking, and two methods used in tanking.

We have the delay targets and the kill targets. Idealy, Paladin would always be tanking the delay targets in split targeting situations. Depending on the intensity of the distributed damage, either the White Mage or the Bard would focus healing accommodation on the Paladin. (Likely the Bard, if the Paladin can sufficiently reduce incoming damage.) The remaining damage weight is held on the other side of the spectrum, where the Warrior tanks for the killing party.

[Note: As we have 8 slots, 2 WHMs is more than possible without stepping on toes currently. However that 8th slot should be flexible. This whole "We NEED 2 WHMs and 2 BLMS EVERY RUN!" needs to be discouraged by the very mechanics of the game.]

In single tanking situations, the Warrior can have at it as a DD and compete keenly as second slot on the hate list to keep the other classes even more secure.

To really secure this ideal all they need to do is secure PLD more of what they already have. Make their damage increase abilities easier to use (Riot Blade needs to work from the front.) Give them easier use of casting so they can actually make use of some of the abilities they have. (More MP regeneration, lower interrupt rate. Flat damage reduction to assist them in kiting and lower HP.)

Right now, the strategy is functional but could use some work. Honestly I hope battle regiments come with a build in mechanic that resists class stacking and encourage job diversity in parties. However that's still a long way off, IMO.

[Zantetsuken]

I did a quick solo test against multiple monsters all at once. This may not come to a surprise to most, but my conclusion was that Warrior simply out match Paladin when it comes to survivability when fighting multiple enemies.

Here is the details on PLD, while fighting multiple enemies my MP was quickly being dried up, and I ended up getting KO'd in the end with only taking out a few enemies. The good; I took less damage compared to Warrior. The bad; lack of MP even with Outmaneuver caused me to die.

On Warrior, with Rampage and Bloodbath I don't have to worry at all, and for extra security I have Second Wind. Basically I was constantly recovering HP with weapon skills, and with the occasional critical hits. The damage I sustained by enemies is almost comparable with Paladin.

So, not a big difference here. PLD is heavily depended on MP.

For me this just proves WAR is better against multiple enemies, and with more enemies the better my chances of a critical hit to recover my HP. I also provided a video, and before you laugh and nitpick at it I was lagging like hell while recording so I messed up a few actions.

If anyone gets a different result than mine please share.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N-SbBPj6Z0

Good example of WAR vs multiple enemies. And yes, the more enemies, the better WAR is at tanking, but I suspect the effectiveness diminishes rapidly the higher the enemies are in relation to the WAR's level. (much more so than single-mob tanking does for PLD)

Do you mind doing a couple tests and see how WAR performs with groups of 3-4 mobs that are lvl 50, then 53, and finally 56?

I'll try it myself as well.

I'll also try the same test with PLD, but I suspect it will not go well.

[Soukyuu]

I would like to point out that 2 whm set up is more for splitting the hate than it is for keeping up with healing.

This is true, however if Paladin really takes 3.5 times less damage, then less healing is required, so WHM is unlikely to be the one who pulls hate if it ever happens.

It's overlooked because off-healing as part of a tank's job is a very bad idea. Between sub-targetting sucking horribly on keyboard+mouse and lack of mouseover macros, you as the tank cannot afford the distraction of looking at health bars and tossing heals.

The HP bars are right below your action bar, might I ask what you are looking at while fighting? I adjusted my UI the way I just stare at my abilities and have mob/my/party hp bars in vision.

You don't even have to look at the numbers if you know how much the hits damage you. You just keep your skill rotation up. This is from a WHM point of view btw, and we have to concentrate on keeping the whole GROUP alive, so if it's possible for a WHM, it should be possible for a PLD too.

I did a quick solo test against multiple monsters all at once. This may not come to a surprise to most, but my conclusion was that Warrior simply out match Paladin when it comes to survivability when fighting multiple enemies.

That's right and I agree, but you're testing it solo. You shouldn't run out of MP that fast in a group.

The biggest bonus of PLD is giving melee a chance of survival while taking less damage thus relieving WHMs and allowing them to throw some heals on the melee too.

So in the end it's just 2 ways of tanking, with people preferring WARs currently.

[Andrien]

That's right and I agree, but you're testing it solo. You shouldn't run out of MP that fast in a group.

The biggest bonus of PLD is giving melee a chance of survival while taking less damage thus relieving WHMs and allowing them to throw some heals on the melee too.

So in the end it's just 2 ways of tanking, with people preferring WARs currently.

If PLD can't survive fighting of multiple enemies solo but WAR can, then there is a balance issue.

I'll do more test later on +Lv50's

[Zantetsuken]

If PLD can't survive fighting of multiple enemies solo but WAR can, then there is a balance issue.

I'll do more test later on +Lv50's

I'm going to disagree with you on this, and here's why:

If PLD is much better at:

A) Tanking single "IT++" mobs

And WAR is much better at:

B) Tanking groups of "VT" mobs

Then both classes have been given a distinct role and tanking style. Furthermore, if both jobs have difficulty fulfilling the other's role, then they are actually balanced quite well.

The unbalancing issue was that WAR dominated both A and B. Since PLD could only do A (and still needed a buff), it didn't have a role in the game and was thus sidelined.

*Sidenote: it seems some players may have wanted PLD and WAR to do both A and B equally well. This erodes class distinction and brings us back further to the universal complaints about the early class system. Thankfully, the devs are trying to push PLD and WAR further apart, rather than closer together.

[Duelle]

You, as the tank, shouldn't be relied on for cures, but it should be an augmenting force to your tanking skills and the survival of your party.

That's not the impression I'm getting, especially when I'm seeing people suggest that having a PLD in group allows the group to bypass inviting a second healer. That's largely where my concern comes from. If I'm on PLD, I'm there to tank, not to do part of the healer's job.

Honestly, it's literally no different from curing yourself, except for hitting a function key to target someone else. You wouldn't say being responsible for your own HP is too stressful, so how would adding one keystroke add so much stress that it would be undesirable for restoring an allies HP (in addition to your own, in addition to enmity)?

You'll probably tell me I suck and that I have no skill for this but whatever. I don't use F-keys. I used sub-targetting in FFXI while using a controller. In WoW I relied on mouse-over macros to do my off-healing/dispelling. So yes, as an individual it is quite troublesome and largely distracting.

Again, the difference is that in the two previous games I was also DPS, which meant that I didn't have to watch out for much aside from environmental hazards and the few abilities my paladin could actually help interrupt/avoid. I could easily dance around Sindragosa and toss instant-cast Flash of Lights on low health party members, or heal any stray raid members hit by Kologarn's eye-beams (while kiting said eye-beams, too). I've even saved healers with low health more times than I can count. I also keep in mind I was able to do that because the responsibility of tanking and all that came with it was not on me.

You say that it's a distraction because you should be focusing on your own survival.

This is false. Tanking it about the survival of your entire group. It doesn't matter how well you stay alive on your own. If the rest of your team is dead for any given reason, then you've failed and you likely aren't going to finish the fight you're in.

The tank is there to take hits and hold the mob's attention. If the tank dies, the group dies. If the tank's death is facilitated by things like expected off-healing (because the group decided to forego bringing a second healer, expecting the PLD to help pick up that slack), it's a pretty bad place to be in.

[Denmo]

Testing solo-ability between PLD and WAR is pointless.

What people really want to know is how well they compare in endgame 8-man content after the recent hotfix. Will players now pick PLD over a WAR when choosing a tank?

What I'm hearing on the forum is, "lolno".

[Xatsh]

From us messing around in dungeons with pld and war it is easy to see the difference.

Pld takes a significant amount less dmg per hit and has the ability to heal themselves (generating hate and lowering the stress on healers), but deals alot less as well. Enmity generation is much higher then on war with equivalent gear.

The thing with Pld is the lower dmg output, in a game with so many speed elements the only way to make pld a valid tank is if the DDs are having to hold back with a war tank. In this case the dds could increase dmg to be overall more effective then using a War. A good pld should allow dds to up their dmg by 15% easily across the board... if that is the case the over all dmg increase across the party from using pld is > the loss dmg using War. Issue is if the DDs are going full out and cannot increase dmg from a war to a pld... the lost dmg will not be made up.

Honestly Pld is a much much better tank, but you have to be able to cover the lower dmg output in a speedrun setting.

[Zaaku]

Here is my two Gil.

PLD has to be able to free up a Whm position.

Between having a PLD be able to semi-sustain themselves but still needing two Whm's because the dmg taken is too much for a lone Whm Vs. Having a War that is completely dependent on outside healing but fully utilizes the potential of both Whm's people are going to take the WAR every time.

It is asking do you want extra healing which isn't necessary or extra damage which is actively helping kill the mob RIGHT now and thus making the fight shorter?

Either we need to get our DD out of the Tank or replace a Healer. Thems the dice. May not be fair but that is how it is. Until Pld can safely and fully replace a Whm slot so another DD can be put in WAR will always take precedent.

[Denmo]

Here is my two Gil.

PLD has to be able to free up a Whm position.

Between having a PLD be able to semi-sustain themselves but still needing two Whm's because the dmg taken is too much for a lone Whm Vs. Having a War that is completely dependent on outside healing but fully utilizes the potential of both Whm's people are going to take the WAR every time.

It is asking do you want extra healing which isn't necessary or extra damage which is actively helping kill the mob RIGHT now and thus making the fight shorter?

Either we need to get our DD out of the Tank or replace a Healer. Thems the dice. May not be fair but that is how it is. Until Pld can safely and fully replace a Whm slot so another DD can be put in WAR will always take precedent.

I can kind of agree. I really just think a PLD should be able to hold his own without a WHM's help, let alone 2 WHMs. A PLD should only need MP and buff support in tight situations, really.