PLD vs WAR: testing

[Alerith]

you cant test a pld solo to see how good he tanks now .... best test is in a party....

While I certainly agree this should be the case, there are so many variables in a party test that it's almost not worth doing.

For example, if in one test a WAR holds hate on Ifrit and deals good damage, but a PLD can only hold hate, WAR is prefered because it dealt more damage.

In a second test, a WAR may lose hate to a BLM. The PLD could hold solid hate, and do more damage with Spirit's Within. PLD would be prefered.

In a third test, a WAR may hold hate, but die due to a lack of proper support. PLD could lose hate to a BLM in this test.


The more variables you add to a test, the more corrupt the end data is going to be, because it's not just that one job that is being involved in the test.

[Zantetsuken]

This test more about raw survival vs a mob +7-8 lvls higher.

One of the biggest complaints has been that WAR is a DD that is just as good as PLD at taking heavy damage (if not better). But with PLD's recent buffs, I don't find this to be the case anymore.

In my experience, PLD can handle higher level mobs much more comfortably than WAR can. In fact, I suspect that as people become accustomed to the changes - many pts that require 2 WHMs might be able to go with just 1 if they have a PLD instead of a WAR. The extra WHM can be converted to a BRD and the Party will likely be better overall for DPS as well as healing...

Of course, WAR is much better at crowd tanking mobs that are closer to its lvl. So they each have their uses

[charlemagne]

In the spirit of experimentation we decided to throw something new into the PLD vs WAR mix. Last night we used a PGL tank on Coincutter,Chimera and Mistress. A PGL has access to the various cross class skills it needs and has the single target dps to help keep hate and to make the fight go quicker. We used a PGL in the Gryphonskin set with only a couple of single melds for an extra 20 def and 21 eva. With food and fists of earth def sat at pretty much the same as a well geared WAR but with higher evasion. Our tank who has hundreds of runs in these dungeons as WAR tank and a few as PLD reported that the fight was more fun. AS DD we found that once hate was established we could actually push dd a little harder without stealing hate and the fights went a little quicker.
I would say obviously it is important only to use pgl tanks in fights where you can be sure that they wont run out of mp for fists. Refresh, mp regain abilities and an emergency elixir help but longer fights may still be problematic. The bosses we tried were no problem at all though and no elixirs were required.

[Delsus]

The thing is PLD is supposed to have low damage output but alot more survivability and more hate tools than raw damage (cures and shield for example), WAR is supposed to have DD amounts of damage output, but less survivability and less hate tools (provoke and raw damage).

This makes both jobs situational do you need to sacrifice raw damage for survivability and hate control, or is it vital you have high dps? For the formor use a PLD, for the latter use a WAR.

The problem is SE's fixation with speed runs right now, making dps important which is a big reason why WAR is perfered over PLD.

[Hyrist]

If the Pld did 25.39 dps and the War did 68.50 dps then that would mean that the Pld takes 68,50/25,39 = 2,69 times more time to kill a mob with the same hp.

That means that in the short period the War needed to kill the mob and took 4171 damage, the Pld only took 3255/2,69 = 1.210 damage. Which would mean that the War took 3,5 times more damage than the Pld.

That's a lot.

That's not only a lot, but it adds evidence to counter the mantra that killing the monster faster is by default safer. "The sooner we kill it, the less damage it deals." just got shut down in the eyes of a Paladin. And so long as it holds superior hate, there is less to hold back on the part of other damage dealers.

The thing is PLD is supposed to have low damage output but alot more survivability and more hate tools than raw damage (cures and shield for example), WAR is supposed to have DD amounts of damage output, but less survivability and less hate tools (provoke and raw damage).

This makes both jobs situational do you need to sacrifice raw damage for survivability and hate control, or is it vital you have high dps? For the formor use a PLD, for the latter use a WAR.

The problem is SE's fixation with speed runs right now, making dps important which is a big reason why WAR is perfered over PLD.

Actually the solution does not even need to eliminate speed runs, but rather give PLD more tools to augment the damage of those around him, without the loss of hate generation in doing so. That alone will solve the speed-run problems with PLD.

Idealy, I'd like to see it settled into PLD being the best Stationary tank, while WAR maintains as the best kiter.

[Molly_Millions]

For some anecdotal evinidence: My group had a way easier time last night with a PLD tank than a WAR tank in the moogle fight. Don't let enyone tell you pld isn't usefull. WAR is just preferred in most cases.

[Enfarious]

For some anecdotal evinidence: My group had a way easier time last night with a PLD tank than a WAR tank in the moogle fight. Don't let enyone tell you pld isn't usefull. WAR is just preferred in most cases.

I had about the same experience on Ifrit, started as WAR and people had to keep it easy longer and found they could pull hate later in the fight than before when once WAR had 1 SC on it was no worries. When I switched to PLD it became far easier to get/hold hate, mages could go nuts mostly. It also cut down on the strain to healers almost enough that they could both get nukes in between cures regularly. Just a little m.def boost now and I might be able to self heal 75% of the fight, well til I run outta MP spamming Succor.

I think with things as they are now WAR still is beast if Rampage Effect can be maintained. Farming tapers to do 1~2 more fights I had no trouble posting the old SC damage when there were 4~5 mobs hitting me, with 1~2 my SC damage would drop sharply unless Enduring March was up.

[Eagleheart]

For some anecdotal evinidence: My group had a way easier time last night with a PLD tank than a WAR tank in the moogle fight. Don't let enyone tell you pld isn't usefull. WAR is just preferred in most cases.

Query. What role did the Paladin play in said fight?

That is to say, was it a single tank fight? Did you take two? If two, what mobs were the PLD assigned to kite?

Groups that I have been in found Warrior still much better, even with the alteration to S.C. I, personally, as WAR, saw no difference in ease of kiting King/Ruffleface et al.

[DeadRiser]

Don't laugh at me, but I've been soloing that damn U'ghamaro Ashman for ages to get the mercenary's leggings just because I want to. Before the patch, soloing as a WAR was completely a peice of cake, just took a while to take him down. PLD never lasted as long and sometimes died.

After patch, I'm finding PLD stands and equal chance, and a lot of the time my HP never falls below 1200 unless I get an add. I can also heal myself for over 1k. Can't wait till people realize having a PLD can have parties replace that extra WHM for a DD

[Molly_Millions]

/em happily suits up in paly armor once again.

/s put me in coach!