RDM 7.4 changes and job identity

[ShionAsrai]

So no real argument, just using the slippery slope fallacy to complain about things that don't currently exist. That's very interesting. I wonder when we can argue whats happening in reality instead of things only in your head :\

In street terms this would be called downplaying it. What you're encouraging is just waiting until the last moment, call it idleness or being impassive, not every person has to sit idle or wait for further such things to happen before speaking their mind and come to conclusion especially if such things has already happened enough times to consider thinking.

Not every job has to fit a particular role perfectly or even good enough, that's what makes some people consider playing a different job, i too don't see the point of literally starting to shapeshift every single job to fit every role or every moment of the fight, the balance shouldn't be decided by that singular moment of a singular duty and as others have suggested the duty should instead allow players to express their skills more freely rather than putting every person in the same pot.

Finding new challenges and creating solutions for the cons of my jobs is the reason i started and continued playing this game, being handheld until the very end isn't fun let alone engaging.

[-Lilia-]

I haven't played since 2018. And I just came back to my favorite class RDM ... but I need to get used to the buttons again. But wait you're saying it's different now? What has changed? Can someone respond to me. <3

[Azurarok]

I haven't played since 2018. And I just came back to my favorite class RDM ... but I need to get used to the buttons again. But wait you're saying it's different now? What has changed? Can someone respond to me. <3

That's like Shadowbringers, right?

Uhhh with EndWalker:
Balance Gauge was adjusted so it's harder to overcap on mana
Acceleration was changed to a 2-charge ability that makes the next Verthunder/Veraero instant cast and guarantee a proc
The sword combo burst got a third instant cast finisher
Magicked Barrier added, raidwide magic mitigation with healing potency buff
Manafication adjusted so it can be used between the melee finisher and verholy/flare
Engagement's potency adjusted to match Displacement so you don't have to backflip to maximize damage output

With 7.0
Manafication changed to give a buff that lets you use the sword combo for free instead of adding gauge
Embolden lets you use an oGCD
Manafication lets you use an oGCD after using up all its stacks
Acceleration also turns your next Jolt/Impact into a stronger instant cast spell, Grand Impact (doesn't trigger dualcast).

With 7.4, Manafication was changed again to remove the damage buffs (Embolden buffed to compensate for it) and instantly grants the oGCD, and made it extend the melee combo's range to 25y for 30s. This last one is what this thread is about.

[TKMXIV]

So no real argument, just using the slippery slope fallacy to complain about things that don't currently exist. That's very interesting. I wonder when we can argue whats happening in reality instead of things only in your head :\

White Mages becoming oops all light Magic back in SHB. Yes, it got Aquaveil in Endwalker, but this is still the same as if a Black Mage only had Dark spells with a touch of lightning.

Dragoon lost two charges of Spineshatter dive at the start of Dyingtrail I mean Dawntrail. THE FINAL FANTASY JOB KNOWN FOR JUMPING ATTACKS lost jumping attacks and for what?
A copy paste dash that slides you alone the ground...

Scholar got Seraphism a transformation that instead of having you wear something like the Fuath set that is linked to fae and has a touch of military aesthetics we get a white robe with angel wings.
And as an added bonus just like reaper it cuts off racial features such as Viera's large ears.

Oh, but Seraphism is small potatoes. Scholar has an even bigger example of job identity being destroyed.
You reach level 30 as an Arcanist and you start the quest to become a Scholar. After finishing it you get a nice cutscene introducing you to your new partners. Eos AND SALENE!
LV50 Where is Salene? 60, 70, 80 oh the fairy from the LB3 Hello Seraph, 90, 100 Seraphism? If it's linked to Seraph the fairy why are the wings gold and stuff? (WHM got light wings that look more fairy like.)
Wait I'm at current level cap where is Salene? Checks around. Oh, she was shot dead and made into a skinsuit for Eos... Anyway, back to Red Mage.

Due to muscle memory the range buff that only happens when using Manafication is pointless for me because I still go into melee range for the combo. Range could have gone to Phlegma a skill that doesn't have a reason to be melee in the first place.
But nope it went to a sword combo.

I was going to end with a joke, but instead I'll just say this. It starts with Manafication and eventually it could bleed into the normal Enchanted sword combo.
Corps-a-corps could become just a muted copy paste slide dash while Displacement loses its damage becoming a leap away skill. While Engagement is just flat out removed.
Causing Red Mage to lose more or its melee combat in favor of just having simple ranged attacks. Call it what you will "over exaggerating" or "not a real argument".
If it has even the smallest chance to stop that what if slippery slope from happening to another job I say go for it. Make some noise be passionate about it. So long as people are being civil and not threatening to hurt someone its fine.

After all what's the point of a forum anyway if not for this kind of thing?

[StriderShinryu]

After all what's the point of a forum anyway if not for this kind of thing?

Exactly this. We're speaking up and trying to express our discontent to the developers on this topic now before it takes any further steps. Despite the fact that I feel the forums are generally kind of useless because what community team still exists pretty much never seems to actually bring forum concerns to the devs, this is really the only place we have to voice those concerns so this is where it's happening.

And it's one thing to call an argument a "slippery slope" when there's no context given but we've literally seen this same sort of "slippery slope" end up with people in an unhappy heap at the bottom of the hill already multiple times in FF14. I understand that people who engage with the more hardcore content in the game have issues with how Red Mage fits into team compositions and I'm not in any way hand waving those concerns. Myself and others both here and elsewhere are just saying that there are multiple ways to deal with that issue/concern, some pretty obvious, that don't require changing one of the more core components of how Red Mage plays.. especially given that this current change points directly towards even further changes that will only make things worse.

[ForsakenRoe]

White Mages becoming oops all light Magic back in SHB. Yes, it got Aquaveil in Endwalker, but this is still the same as if a Black Mage only had Dark spells with a touch of lightning.

Dragoon lost two charges of Spineshatter dive at the start of Dyingtrail I mean Dawntrail. THE FINAL FANTASY JOB KNOWN FOR JUMPING ATTACKS lost jumping attacks and for what?
A copy paste dash that slides you alone the ground...

Scholar got Seraphism a transformation that instead of having you wear something like the Fuath set that is linked to fae and has a touch of military aesthetics we get a white robe with angel wings.
And as an added bonus just like reaper it cuts off racial features such as Viera's large ears.

Oh, but Seraphism is small potatoes. Scholar has an even bigger example of job identity being destroyed.
You reach level 30 as an Arcanist and you start the quest to become a Scholar. After finishing it you get a nice cutscene introducing you to your new partners. Eos AND SALENE!
LV50 Where is Salene? 60, 70, 80 oh the fairy from the LB3 Hello Seraph, 90, 100 Seraphism? If it's linked to Seraph the fairy why are the wings gold and stuff? (WHM got light wings that look more fairy like.)
Wait I'm at current level cap where is Salene? Checks around. Oh, she was shot dead and made into a skinsuit for Eos... Anyway, back to Red Mage.

Due to muscle memory the range buff that only happens when using Manafication is pointless for me because I still go into melee range for the combo. Range could have gone to Phlegma a skill that doesn't have a reason to be melee in the first place.
But nope it went to a sword combo.

I was going to end with a joke, but instead I'll just say this. It starts with Manafication and eventually it could bleed into the normal Enchanted sword combo.
Corps-a-corps could become just a muted copy paste slide dash while Displacement loses its damage becoming a leap away skill. While Engagement is just flat out removed.
Causing Red Mage to lose more or its melee combat in favor of just having simple ranged attacks. Call it what you will "over exaggerating" or "not a real argument".
If it has even the smallest chance to stop that what if slippery slope from happening to another job I say go for it. Make some noise be passionate about it. So long as people are being civil and not threatening to hurt someone its fine.

After all what's the point of a forum anyway if not for this kind of thing?

To add to your examples, I'd point to Dancer.
In Dawntrail, Dancer got Finishing Move, an action which is functionally identical to Standard Finish in potency, cooldown, etc. The only difference is, you can just use it directly, without performing the RNG dance steps beforehand.
The 2min loop for Dancer previously was 4 Standard Steps (of 2 steps each), and a Technical Step (4 steps), for a total of 12 dance steps (Jete, Emboite etc)
In DT, that has now changed to 2 Standard Steps (2 steps each), 2 Finishing Moves (0 steps each) and a Technical Step (4 steps), for a total of 8 dance steps.
This is a 33% reduction in how many dance steps you perform per 2min compared to previously. You, objectively speaking, 'dance' less as a Dancer.

Another example: AST. The Job that whose Identity was centered around Tarot, an activity wherein the 'teller' draws cards from a deck at random, and interprets their meanings... Now, there is no randomness in the action of Drawing cards. You're guaranteed to get Balance, Arrow, Spire, then Spear, Bole, Ewer, and repeat. That'd be like going to a Tarot reading and seeing you, and your 3 friends, get either 'Chariot, Temperance, Sun' or 'Tower, Justice, Moon', and if you ask anyone else who goes, they'd say they got one of those two results too. People would (rightly) call it a scam! And yes, I agree with people who didn't like getting screwed by RNG, that getting screwed by RNG felt bad. You know what the solution should have been? To give the players tools to fight back against RNG and feel like they're in control of the result, not to just remove the RNG entirely

Another another example: DRK. The original design in HW was that Darkside would drain your MP, and empowered actions would cost MP too (via Dark Arts). Managing that drain, and not overspending, was so tied into the gameplay and Identity of the Job, the idea that 'let your anger empower you, but don't lose yourself to the abyss', that the Job quests themselves STILL reference this, not only as a narrative element, but as a gameplay element. The 'stand in the black fire, but not too many' in the first quest (where you kill like 10 Temple Knights about 15min after entering Ishgard), represents the idea of 'use the darkness and empower yourself', while the self-stun that happens if you take too many represents 'you went too far and now you must pay the price' (in regular gameplay, 'you drop Darkside and have to reapply it'). Over the years, due to players not being able to hold back from just blowing their load right away, SE changed Darkside from 'drains MP over time' to 'Pauses MP regeneration', to 'it is just a 10% damage buff you have to literally try to lose'. Seriously, to let Darkside fall off now, you either have to purposely not press Edge/Flood (and overcap MP like crazy), or you have to use, and fail to break, something like 3 TBNs in a row. The mechanic might as well just not exist, from a gameplay perspective, but it has to remain in this hollow shell state because it's core to the narrative of the Job. A 'shadow' of its former self, how ironic



Removing the requirement to be in Melee distance for a sword swing on RDM, would be like removing the invocation of Ninjutsu via Mudras. If SE just removed Raiton, Suiton, etc. And just made them into standard CDs (or in Suiton's case, removed it and just added the potency into Trick Attack). Some would rationalize that 'oh but it's okay, because Ninja still 'uses Ninjutsu technically'', but it'd be undeniable that it'd change the dynamic of the Job, and impact its Identity.

Another example would be... how about 'taking the Role most known for being mobile, and preventing them from being so mobile'? IE, imagine the outcry about 'the Identity of the Role' that'd happen if SE were to give Bards a castbar for their shots. It takes time to aim an arrow/gun, after all!

[Raikai]

To add to your examples, I'd point to Dancer.
In Dawntrail, Dancer got Finishing Move, an action which is functionally identical to Standard Finish in potency, cooldown, etc. The only difference is, you can just use it directly, without performing the RNG dance steps beforehand.
The 2min loop for Dancer previously was 4 Standard Steps (of 2 steps each), and a Technical Step (4 steps), for a total of 12 dance steps (Jete, Emboite etc)
In DT, that has now changed to 2 Standard Steps (2 steps each), 2 Finishing Moves (0 steps each) and a Technical Step (4 steps), for a total of 8 dance steps.
This is a 33% reduction in how many dance steps you perform per 2min compared to previously. You, objectively speaking, 'dance' less as a Dancer.

As a DNC main, I admit it was annoying to perform SS in the middle of the burst window, but I also agree that feels weird to dance less. The most elegant solution would be Finishing Move triggered not by Flourish, but by Technical Finisher.

I do wonder, if they don't change their design mindset, what they can even add to DNC in 8.0. The burst window is already full to the brim, both in the GCD and oGCDs. The main issue of the job, to me, is how boring it is outside of the Technical Finisher buff window. And I think the best way to tackle that is doing something to the "not-2min burst".

Imagine if, for one minute after the TS buff ends, the next Standard Step changes into a new 4-step dance, and each of those new steps actually deal some damage, and after the new finisher, you get a 30s buff where all your procs are 100% guaranteed (and visually upgraded).

With something like this, it checks the box of adding new shiny toys that won't really bloat the collective burst window.

[Solilunaris]

The last few posts explained the problem: it’s clear there’s a job omogenization. I cannot fathom why the devs keep catering to just vocal minorities. The result? We get piss easy jobs and lost of job features for the sake of simplicity or optimization. We will reach a point where everyone can press one button and be 100% optimal every time. 8.0? please look forward to it

[Mecia]

Im expecting 8.0 to delete magical ranged DPS at this point.

[ForsakenRoe]

Im expecting 8.0 to delete magical ranged DPS at this point.

They won't need to, because they likely view the roles differently from us. We're looking at it as Ranged and Caster, ie, one has full mobility and one has cast times to add an additional mechanic to work around. But if you instead look at it as 'Phys Ranged and Magical Ranged are different, because while both attack from range, one deals their damage primarily via physical damage type, and the other deals their damage primarily via magical damage type', things start to make a lot more sense. Back in HW, they gave Bard and Machinist cast times on some actions. Obviously, people weren't very enthusiastic about the change, for the most part. But it makes sense when you use the second view rather than the first: There's nothing about giving BRD cast times that goes against 'the Job is a Physical Ranged, because it primarily deals damage via Physical damage type'. Similarly, there's nothing about new SMN having 4 cast times per 60s (3 if you use Swiftcast on one) that goes against Magical Ranged, because it still deals its damage as Magic damage type

They should increase the 1% that each role provides to 2.5% (rescaling damage checks going forward to factor that in) and merge the bonus from PhysRanged/MagicRanged. So you can have parties of 2 Melee, 2 Ranged, with no 'hard requirement' for a PhysRanged vs MagicRanged. BRD/DNC comp, BLM/PCT comp, MCH/RDM comp, whatever, all of them would provide the same %bonus to the party, which would help alleviate role demand in the PF. Last tier, I kid you not, the PF I was in for M8S that got the clear, waited for EIGHT hours for a PhysRanged. When we finally got one, it was the PhysRanged we had the night before. We got the clear on that second night, but the issue remains: SE has removed a lot of the 'reason' to play a PhysRanged beyond 'I just like X PhysRanged more than any of the Casters', but they haven't done anything regarding the 'requirement' for one to be present for highend content. So either SE needs to address the Role's purpose, or just merge the Phys/Magic Ranged bonuses so you can run double Caster if needed/preferred. I'd expect the latter to be far less work for SE (and therefore preferable as a solution from their POV), but it does run the risk of making BLM a locked slot (moreso than it currently is) due to it being Melee damage output, as a Ranged Job (which could be addressed somewhat by SE waking up to the reality that the Ranged Tax is a very silly design)