Elemental Spell Reform

**Jinrya-Geki** · 05-03-2012 05:47 AM

You can't just have three spells in this game. All the monsters have some resistance to it, and in the old Final fantasies, mobs didn't have such high resistance.

Even if the mob resisted lightning, let's say, you still have two useful spells that will do awesome damage. In this game the only other thing we have is the fire line, which is still not that great compared to thundara line. Great for taking out the trash mobs. But completely mp insufficient to mobs that matter to kill because of the mp cost. The blizzard line sucks. I don't solo, and I don't pull hate. Since we kill trash mobs with fire line, what good is the ice line?

The ancient magic spells don't live up to their names, this needs to be change.

White mage role is, always has been the healer. Only against the undead should white mage rain supreme in damage dealing. EVERYTHING else should be Black Mages turf as far as elements go. It's unfair to be restricted to one spell and call it black mage, should be called Lightning mage.

I am just asking for a reform to make Black Mage to have all elemental spells, and ancient magic spells fixed. White mage should have the banish line, and then to fix the enfeeble line before red mage comes out, otherwise we'll have 3 mages that can do the same thing almost -black mage being able to heal.

**Vaymathias** · 05-03-2012 05:59 AM

Nothing I wrote was meant as an insult. Sorry if that's how it came across. All of what I said was only meant to make people, certainly not just you, think about the system in it's current state. Being the best you can be right now means stack Lightning and cast thunder alot. I don't like that people defend this. If you or anyone else has ideas that aren't defending the system as it is now I applaud you.

As for the dev's getting to make a game any way they want, that ship has sailed, they gave us power to call for change, and then asked us to use that power. In every sense they asked us to offer up the frameworks that we wanted to see in the game. I'll be damned if I'm not at the very least going to share my thoughts and opinions. If the devs are on a roll toward what we have now, the unbalance and limited play options, and aren't derailed somehow we're going to end up with a game that is no more than who wears the most thunder+ gear for dmg, str/vit gear for war tank, and a whm and brd hanging out waiting on things to die. If/when I seem condescending or generally negative it's typically because someone came across as defending things as they are, or raged at the idea of change.
Again sorry if it felt that I was intentionally insulting you, I wasn't going for that at all.

well I am certainly NOT defending the system as a whole, just the THM/BLM side of it. I like going by the classic FF theme, but the content is the problem, it was made for a nuker with access to 6 elements + light and dark. With 2.0, that can be changed. It's likely one of the things they're looking at since it's so important for balance.

The current setup is rock paper scissors. Continuing this and saying we're all good with the most functional way for a blm to work is thunder > thundara > thundaga > thunder > thundara >>> repeat. Say it's not if you want to but let's look at all the content and the suggested tactics for successful fast runs:
Take WAR WHM BRD BLMx5; thunder combo ?????? down; use hate shedding abils as needed and cooling the DPS if needed.

The elemental wheel system is almost literally rock, paper, scissors. One beats the next and keeps doing so until starting over. The way it is now is rock, paper, scissors excpet you can't throw paper.

I don't like all thunder being single target, and all fire being aoe, and all ice sucking. I put my own suggestion of how to fix that issue, using the stone/aero chain system and also one in reverse which allows for two aoe's of the same element, in the same way that you can get two single targets back to back.

Whether tactics advance used that system, which I don't doubt, or not, you have to keep in mind what your argument is using as a strength, a gaming system that was geared toward younger players, players where simple is a better approach. Just like the original FF games were geared toward the people playing games at the time, younger, mostly 8~15. Today's market reaches far more but in the case of this game I don't think, I hope that, the target market isn't 8~15. FFs grew up and evolved, became more robust and complex over time just like the people that made up the large part of who was buying/playing those games. Games for the advance, DS, and all the gameboys prior; tactics advance included were geared for younger players.

Final Fantasy 3/6 used the system as well, and that game was easily the MOST mature of all the Final Fantasies. The only tiers for black magic was bolt/fire/ice, there was a Quake spell, but it hit everyone, and not flying enemies. There was also a tornado spell called "W.Wind" I think, which was and AOE only and dealt extra damage to flying enemies, with some flying being resistant.

That system was more complex in a sense, but easier to understand. Enemy weaknesses were more truthful, since they were based on real world aspects, and not some need to fit a wheel. An enemy could use fire abilities and not be a fire based enemy, his weakness may have ended up being Lightning, it was based on the concept of the enemy.

Even if the mob resisted lightning, let's say, you still have two useful spells that will do awesome damage. In this game the only other thing we have is the fire line, which is still not that great compared to thundara line. Great for taking out the trash mobs. But completely mp insufficient to mobs that matter to kill because of the mp cost. The blizzard line sucks. I don't solo, and I don't pull hate. Since we kill trash mobs with fire line, what good is the ice line?

The ancient magic spells don't live up to their names, this needs to be change.

As I've said, for the most part, this is taken care of in content. And yes, the ancient magic needs to be improved, possibly by attaching them to chains.

White mage role is, always has been the healer. Only against the undead should white mage rain supreme in damage dealing. EVERYTHING else should be Black Mages turf as far as elements go. It's unfair to be restricted to one spell and call it black mage, should be called Lightning mage.

I am just asking for a reform to make Black Mage to have all elemental spells, and ancient magic spells fixed. White mage should have the banish line, and then to fix the enfeeble line before red mage comes out, otherwise we'll have 3 mages that can do the same thing almost -black mage being able to heal.

If you're basing it on role, then WHM has always be a healer, yes, but if they base it on a thematic concept, it can very easily fit. Fire/Lightning/Ice are by nature very destructive, while Water/Earth/Wind are not so. Saying that the former are Dark based elements while the latter are Holy based elements would work out perfect. Though I'm not asking for WHM to have such strong offensive magic, I was surprised at how strong Stone and Aero were.

I suspect a big reason they went with the current system was their need to have every ability from the current class/job on a persons action bars. Working with that limitation this way is perfectly fine AS LONG as they develop the content around it.

**Jinrya-Geki** · 05-03-2012 09:07 PM

These limitations on Disciple of magic of 15 abilities needs to be removed. If conjurers want to solo, they should have to cross-class spells from Thm. Party play > Solo.

Why was this terrible idea done? Seriously I want a valid reason to why:

Disciple of Magic have 15 abilities?

Why solo play took priority of party play?

Why the wheel was split?

Why Fire/Ice aren't as good Thunder line when you limited us to 15 spells?

Why the ancient magics spells suck at DD. (Freezes needs upped damage, and Flare not be self aoe. Burst could be better for a 15 minute ability.)

Why does Holy suck for all you MP?

Why did you make enfeebles useless? Stack all the pity you want after the first use of any enfeeble it's useless.

Yet it's seen fit to nerf warrior first...

**Enfarious** · 05-03-2012 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by Vaymathias

well I am certainly NOT defending the system as a whole, just the THM/BLM side of it. I like going by the classic FF theme, but the content is the problem, it was made for a nuker with access to 6 elements + light and dark. With 2.0, that can be changed. It's likely one of the things they're looking at since it's so important for balance.

Adding yet more simplification isn't helping, imo, that's all that this will do. Changing the system to better suit less options, to make less dynamics is what they'd be doing.

The elemental wheel system is almost literally rock, paper, scissors. One beats the next and keeps doing so until starting over. The way it is now is rock, paper, scissors except you can't throw paper.

The wheel makes sense, I didn't suggest that mobs follow any particular pattern of resistance, but just that those 6 elements chasing one another does make sense. Ants being earth based makes sense, and what mobs use don't have to be based on their elemental affinity, ants being earth based doesn't mean they can't generate fire, just that because they're attuned to earth what with living in it they should be strong to it. I think that's pretty much what you've been saying, I completely agree with that.

I don't like all thunder being single target, and all fire being aoe, and all ice sucking. I put my own suggestion of how to fix that issue, using the stone/aero chain system and also one in reverse which allows for two aoe's of the same element, in the same way that you can get two single targets back to back.

Everyone (I think) agrees that this is a broken aspect of things in the magick system.

Final Fantasy 3/6 used the system as well, and that game was easily the MOST mature of all the Final Fantasies. The only tiers for black magic was bolt/fire/ice, there was a Quake spell, but it hit everyone, and not flying enemies. There was also a tornado spell called "W.Wind" I think, which was and AOE only and dealt extra damage to flying enemies, with some flying being resistant.

That system was more complex in a sense, but easier to understand. Enemy weaknesses were more truthful, since they were based on real world aspects, and not some need to fit a wheel. An enemy could use fire abilities and not be a fire based enemy, his weakness may have ended up being Lightning, it was based on the concept of the enemy.

They all blur some going back that far, late 80's/early 90's but, the systems were very simple, things like quake, flood, flare, meteo, holy, all existed back that far. When I say the game became more mature and robust I mean the mechanics overall. The materia system, jobs and subjobs, the sphere grid. The story lines were always great, it's one of the reasons that to this day I continue to play these over most other games.
Complex but easy to understand was achieved in many of them, with 8 elements the system isn't any more diffucult to understand just more robust, there's more options, more you CAN do, if someone still wants to cast nothing but the one spell they can, but those that want the more robust complex system are welcome to use it.

As I've said, for the most part, this is taken care of in content. And yes, the ancient magic needs to be improved, possibly by attaching them to chains.

If you're basing it on role, then WHM has always be a healer, yes, but if they base it on a thematic concept, it can very easily fit. Fire/Lightning/Ice are by nature very destructive, while Water/Earth/Wind are not so. Saying that the former are Dark based elements while the latter are Holy based elements would work out perfect. Though I'm not asking for WHM to have such strong offensive magic, I was surprised at how strong Stone and Aero were.

Fire Lightning Ice aren't any more or less destructive than Floods Quakes/Volcanoes(which are fire/earth) and Tornados, actually of them Ice as an element is one of the least destructive on it's own, without the impact of wind to create a blizzard, earth to create an avalanche ... Ice actually creates very stable, if slick, homes/ground for people, fire is life giving in every corner of the world and every culture, lightning is what's making this whole conversation possible by being in a controlled form. Most poisons are derived from a liquid base.

I suspect a big reason they went with the current system was their need to have every ability from the current class/job on a persons action bars. Working with that limitation this way is perfectly fine AS LONG as they develop the content around it.

They haven't got nearly every ability and skill from the old/orig system. When they decided imposing a limit of 15 abilities to each class I have to believe it was to speed and simplify development for a version of the game that they knew was going away.

I really do hope that they don't keep this system, both on the 15 abilities front, and the way mages are now, whm isn't a whm from the majority of the old ff lore, blm isn't a blm from the majority of the old ff lore, yet the claim is, "We drew from previous FFs." What I mean by this is, to clarify, WHM hasn't every been a job that has a DD repertoire, BLM has always been the job that has elemental control to a science. This we have 2 Elemental mages not a whm and a blm, the only distinction is that blm can't heal and buff as well.

**Enfarious** · 05-03-2012 10:02 PM