Phoenix Down in 4-Player Content is a Great Idea

[Ryaze]

I must admit, when I was new to the game, I was rewarded with a phoenix down, and I genuinely tried to revive one of my fallen teammates because I remembered from one of their previous games that this is what the item does.

Why would this be a step in the wrong direction? It is in line with their previous games and a nice addition to it.

As for more challenging content, I wish they would incorporate more mechanics that you see in harder types of content, but done in a simplistic and non-punishing manner. Most of the stuff that you learn in dungeons is Stack, Tank Buster, and spread.

Because following gameplay themes and systems from single player turn-based RPGs doesn't always translate well to other genres. Yes, this is a Final Fantasy game, but that doesn't mean it should incorporate every single gameplay mechanic from the entire series.

A very common complaint throughout a lot of the playerbase is that there is a large subsection of players that never learn how to do basic story mode mechanics or learn how to properly play their job. Dying and wiping isn't a punishment, it's the natural response system in video games. It's not failure, it's direct feedback that someone did something wrong. Even partially negating that is going to encourage more limping across the finish line for MSQ duties instead of people taking the effort and learning how basic fights and mechanics work. Is it frustrating when someone is at a high level and doesn't understand core mechanics? Sure. But I'd rather have a longer duty and explain things so someone can learn (assuming they are receptive to communication and cooperation) than simply finish a duty quickly. I play online games (and MMOs) for the community, cooperation, and coordination, not for instant gratification.

There's a lot of mechanics that used to be extreme or savage only but have been incorporated into MSQ duties. It's happened for a long time, but it usually lags behind a couple of expansions. I think one of the more obvious ones in Dawntrail is the final boss of the lvl 93 dungeon, has a lot of mechanics ripped directly from E4S.

[FuturePastNow]

Devs, please make Phoenix Downs available at the GC (Grand Company).

We're always looking for reasons to spend Grand Company seals and that should ensure that more people have a full stock of Phoenix Downs.

Selling them for GC seals and Wolf Marks would be a good use of both

[Vitallian]

Selling them for GC seals and Wolf Marks would be a good use of both

I actually think i'd prefer the seals over the Wolf Marks, but honestly yeah I think both would be a good use for them.

[Kohashi]

Because following gameplay themes and systems from single player turn-based RPGs doesn't always translate well to other genres. Yes, this is a Final Fantasy game, but that doesn't mean it should incorporate every single gameplay mechanic from the entire series.

A very common complaint throughout a lot of the playerbase is that there is a large subsection of players that never learn how to do basic story mode mechanics or learn how to properly play their job. Dying and wiping isn't a punishment, it's the natural response system in video games. It's not failure, it's direct feedback that someone did something wrong. Even partially negating that is going to encourage more limping across the finish line for MSQ duties instead of people taking the effort and learning how basic fights and mechanics work. Is it frustrating when someone is at a high level and doesn't understand core mechanics? Sure. But I'd rather have a longer duty and explain things so someone can learn (assuming they are receptive to communication and cooperation) than simply finish a duty quickly. I play online games (and MMOs) for the community, cooperation, and coordination, not for instant gratification.

There's a lot of mechanics that used to be extreme or savage only but have been incorporated into MSQ duties. It's happened for a long time, but it usually lags behind a couple of expansions. I think one of the more obvious ones in Dawntrail is the final boss of the lvl 93 dungeon, has a lot of mechanics ripped directly from E4S.

I mean, that's the entire idea of this game. An adaptation of their previous games in an MMO setup. I would have personally stayed away from it and just kept some sense of familiarity, like races and maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe some classes, but yeah, I do think it limited their creativity and innovation in terms of role/ class design, but anyway, that's beside the point now. Overall, I don't mind the idea.

As for stuff taking longer, I don't mind it either; however, I do approach the entire thing differently. I let them figure it out themselves. If they want guidance, they can ask. They aren't a bunch of toddlers whose hands need to be held at all times.

Regarding mechanics in duties/ raids normally they use a mix of old mechanics that people might be familiar with and also a few that are 100% new. I generally don't mind that formula either because I'm pretty sure, not a lot of people did all of the content religiously and still remeber every detail on how to solve it.

[Rithy255]

Snip

Paladin is also by far my favourite as it has the most utility out of the tanks, while im not the biggest fan of the rework (6.2) it's still a fun job to me

I want to live in a world where Tanks and Healers could ideally coexist as support roles, obviously their focus should be different (hence why they are different roles) But I don't really see things like knights benediction a problem on it's own it's when you stack absurd mitigation and other self healing tools when it starts to get out of hand I think the issue isn't just "tanks have healing" it's Tanks have too much of everything right now, Tanks should have Less SELF survivability but more team tools and ways to protect players in my opinion, this doesn't have to step on healers toes but can also have some small overlap if not pushed to far (where current overlap in healing skill has been pushed to far).

I can sympathize and understand that sitting on the floor watching everyone else fight is not fun, but I don't really think it improves casual content just further makes it more "casual" and easier, I don't think it makes healer a fun or interesting role which should be their goal, a Solo tank should frankly not be able to survive on their own for the entire fight, I'd rather people be able to vote to reset a fight instead of just making dungeons even easier as at least on content their was some room for error sometimes now EVERYONE can rez and tanks are practically invincible you literally should never wipe.

I also just rather run 3 dps and 1 tank at this point I'm honestly considering doing that just because I'd have much more fun healing and protecting the party on a solo tank then healer these days due to how boring i find the design of them, I think healer mains will see this as a massive W "haha no silly warrior solo it" (which is valid warrior soloing a content at like 60% is super cringe) but then realise oh wait I still don't actually heal and now everyone can rez I can't even have that unique to me anymore...

Also is it just me or shouldn't SMN/RDM at least get some sort of buff in this content? I get it's "LOL JUST DUNGEONS BRO" but theirs no reason to even bring these jobs in any 4 man content.

[Veritas-Ancora]

I'm not sure "make healers even more optional" is an ideal choice given the state of the role already, but you're welcome to be more optimistic than I am about Square-Enix's intent with this change. I simply don't trust them.

Look, there are really bad healers out there that die to everything. I don't think EX/Savage healers have anything to worry about, but there are times when the healer just has no idea what they're doing. That's the real fix here.

[SongOfTheWind]

Because the rezzing isn't "stealing" one's job as a healer given that due to its limitations its almost only going to be used when the healer has already failed (is dead, or has let too many die to have MP/SC).

But if agreed on the result despite that difference in perspective, then alrighty.

You just kept misunderstanding the person you kept quoting in your replies. You don’t even have “different perspectives”.

[Chasingstars]

Honestly, secretly hoping this change means the removal of caster rez, and SMN, and RDM get buffed to a point that actually finally kills the physical ranged role because maybe then the developers will give a shit about it.

No. Because the changes ares meant for 4-player content. Your still expected to have a rez as a summoner in content with 8+ players. This just means that summoner for example now has 2 rezzes, and if they swiftcast a damage spell they can just pop a phoenix down to compensate.

Also this means that every selfish dps is going to be expected to carry phoenix downs, even physical ranged. So dancer and bard at least are even more of a support-dps job.

The reason to implement the changes is just to fix the dead healer problem while the rest of the party is still alive. As anyone could pop a phoenix down now so the healer isn't forced to watch and stay dead unless people want to reset. This also is going to mean less resetting, as even if its just a warrior soloing a dungeon boss, they can just rez the healer again who can then heal themself and then rez the rest of the party.

[Hyperia]

I'm not sure "make healers even more optional" is an ideal choice given the state of the role already, but you're welcome to be more optimistic than I am about Square-Enix's intent with this change. I simply don't trust them.

I’m calling it now, they are giving Warriors a fel cleave closer that heals everybody in the raid, removes all ailments, adds a 500% damage shield and removes 25% of all targets health.

I know this is in jest and exaggeration (god I hope so), but as a career WHM, this what it feels every expansion as I watch WARs get stronger and stronger.

What will they get next? “Dragging the axe”, mega intimidation skill that causes all monster to flee and leave their loot.

The Warrior LB3 will be upgraded to infinity death, all targets near the Warrior die instantly.

[mallleable]

No. Because the changes ares meant for 4-player content. Your still expected to have a rez as a summoner in content with 8+ players. This just means that summoner for example now has 2 rezzes, and if they swiftcast a damage spell they can just pop a phoenix down to compensate.

A decision like this cannot be made in a vacuum. Four player instances include Criterion (not Criterion savage because that doesn't allow rezzing period), and Quantum level difficulties which have overlaps with eight player instances. And as we get more, and more types of high end four player fights, job balance needs to be taken a little more seriously in four player fights which then influences eight player fights. Why bring a weaker SMN or any phys ranged into a maxed Quantum fight or even just Criterion prog when you can bring PCT or BLM, and not lose the ability to rez. The ability to raise is no long job or role exclusive so the idea of removing rez from SMN or RDM is no longer as great a threat to their identities. And you just know people will be asking to allow them to use Phoenix Down in eight player fights, and to me to me it is just a matter of when they will allow it.