Phoenix Down in 4-Player Content is a Great Idea

[mallleable]

Honestly, secretly hoping this change means the removal of caster rez, and SMN, and RDM get buffed to a point that actually finally kills the physical ranged role because maybe then the developers will give a shit about it.

[Shurrikhan]

The phrase “death by a thousand cuts” has apparently been forgotten

Ehhh... not agreeing that a particular change is for the worse =/= forgetting that "death by a thousand cuts" exists.

For the same reason I liked not needing a Ranger to be allowed to play the game past the nth minute of continuous combat before, I like that someone could now rez the healer... in theory.

I'm just not sure I like the particular manner of implementation.

For instance, I'd prefer that the long cooldown on Phoenix Down be party-wide via some debuff reset only on a wipe. 1 abnormal/extra battle-rez is enough and generally then reserves it for the tank or healer rather than allowing one to forgo a typical rezzer entirely.

____________

As for SMN/RDM raises, I'd have just preferred that healer raises bring the target back with more HP and MP (e.g., at 40%) than non-healers' (e.g., at 10%), and perhaps that Dualcast reduce one's cast-times by that of Verthunder/Veraero rather than completely nullifying the cast-time. And buff SMN/RDM damage towards Pictomancer's in compensation.

[Kranel_San]

It’s just your dots

It’s just your complexity

It’s just tanks helping you

It’s just super competant players who don’t need you

It’s just 4 man content

What’s next “it’s just an option to select ‘no healer in DF’”

The phrase “death by a thousand cuts” has apparently been forgotten

I haven't been following the community tightly as I used to be recently, but it seems to me that healers are already losing their minds over something both RDM & SMN (Non-healer jobs) are still easily pulling off. Heck, without the MP limit, RDM could spam rezzes to multiple players in a few seconds (Dualcast: Cure/Attack + Rez)

Do you honestly think Phoenix Downs are going to keep the party's HP up during dungeon pulls? Even if we consider the 'Slippery slope' in which the devs allowed it to be used in 8-man content. It will be difficult for a player (Tank or DPS) going around rezzing several players and maintaining their HP as a non-healer, and that's not counting the enrage or the mechanics involved.

As a fan of RPG elements, and of several Final Fantasy games, I'm glad to see Phoenix Downs earning a spotlight and an emphasis on coming prepared with items in your inventory rather than it being pure skills & spells.

Besides, what are we going to do when a healer messes up and dies mid-fight in a dungeon? Wipe and restart the boss again just because of one player who wants to feel his role is fulfilled? I'd rather have an emphasis on individual accountability and contribution.

I'd wager they're trying to see how far they can go, starting from 4-mans for now. There's no guarantee they will actually pull that off, but there's also no reason to not suspect that outcome.

NGL I kinda wish RDM and SMN raises instantly inflicts BoD so at the very least it'll give reasons for healer to handle the first raises. Or hey.. give one of the healer a niche to ignore Weakness/BoD maybe WHM.

Your job role is 'Healer' not 'Ressurector' so instead of worrying about a non-healer rezzing. It might be better to keep everyone alive so they don't have any need to rez in the first place. Granted, some mechanics can one-shot players, but still healers are needed as healers, not as rezzing machines (Otherwise, there'd have been no need to bring healers instead of SMN & RDMs)

I do agree with healers that there might be better ways to grant healers the complexity they need (I still find EW AST Rework to be ridiculous), but it's not about resurrections at all. Other games (WoW and GW2, for example) had resurrections in the hands of other roles and players but still had functional healer roles and need to bring one or more.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]Your job role is 'Healer' not 'Ressurector' so instead of worrying about a non-healer rezzing. It might be better to keep everyone alive so they don't have any need to rez in the first place. Granted, some mechanics can one-shot players, but still healers are needed as healers, not as rezzing machines (Otherwise, there'd have been no need to bring healers instead of SMN & RDMs)

I do agree with healers that there might be better ways to grant healers the complexity they need (I still find EW AST Rework to be ridiculous), but it's not about resurrections at all. Other games (WoW and GW2, for example) had resurrections in the hands of other roles and players but still had functional healer roles and need to bring one or more.

1. Never said we are -the resurrector-. I'm also aware that raising in some other games are NOT 'healer mechanic'. But that's besides the point: this game design clearly think it is 'healer thing' since time immemorial, which they slowly allow that perk to bleed over to other roles. I've said my piece in another similar thread that this PD change is a good change in vacuum. But given the context that they NEVER expand this feature until healers are barren dry in EW+, why do you think some healers are yelling about what remains of their barren tools being further devalued indirectly? Why is this PD change didn't happen like... since 2.0? I don't think that's hard to comprehend.
2. Sure, then let us heal; where are those damage that I can heal now? Jokes on you, healers in many 4-man contents are needed not because we have to heal. It's because DF pug queue won't pop without 1/1/2 compo.

[Shurrikhan]

Never said we are -the resurrector-. I'm also aware that raising in some other games are NOT 'healer mechanic'. But that's besides the point: this game design clearly think it is 'healer thing' since time immemorial, which they slowly allow that perk to bleed over to other roles.

ARR launched with two classes that could battle-rez, only one of which was necessarily a healer. 50% of rezzing classes or 67% of rezzing jobs being healer in ARR, 60% of jobs in Stormblood, etc., does not exactly make it an exclusively healer mechanic "since time immemorial".

Sure, then let us heal; where are those damage that I can heal now? Jokes on you, healers in many 4-man contents are needed not because we have to heal. It's because DF pug queue won't pop without 1/1/2 compo.

This doesn't change that. No variant runs are available via matchmaker. Even if you made a wipe recoverable without a 10+ minute tank solo, you'd still have to take healers to DF runs.

Oh great... you just made me realize this change is probably because they plan on adding even more one-shot DDR into future normal content because they'll be expecting everyone to be carrying piles of Phoenix Downs. (And if anyone isn't carrying them, GG, might even get kicked for it).

Given that they're basically only usable in the most casual of content anyways, I doubt anyone would be kicked over it. That said, I do wonder why they wouldn't just turn it into a General Action if all other items are to remain as useless as they've been since ~level 38.

Suddenly this idea has me very worried about future encounter design, because they don't do things like this without a reason, the same way they kept changing jobs to make them properly dance to their tune.

Also watch them remove Raise from SMN and RDM but then give them literally nothing in return because everyone loves fewer buttons, right?

Phoenix Downs wouldn't excuse removing Caster raises. These still have a 6-minute cooldown.

My only concern, like your first here, is that it may forgive yet more OHKO mechanics, since someone "could just rez the healer" if it came down to it.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

ARR launched with two classes that could battle-rez, only one of which was necessarily a healer. 50% of rezzing classes or 67% of rezzing jobs being healer in ARR, 60% of jobs in Stormblood, etc., does not exactly make it an exclusively healer mechanic "since time immemorial".[...]

A'ight I concede that line is hyperbolic for a purpose but initial point still stands though: the game tries to shove good amount of raising resp. to the green coded roles, then slowly fan out that perk, first seen in RDM StB & apparently able to do them in quicker and safer fashion.

[...]Even if you made a wipe recoverable without a 10+ minute tank solo, you'd still have to take healers to DF runs.

Uh yeah? That's my point? Because the system is baked to force a 1T1H2D compo regardless, henceforth I find the notion of 'bringing a healer because they're needed as a healer' highly amusing given the pitiful degree of required HPS.

Anecdotal this may be, but I've known & seen plenty of folks who'd rather swap to 3rd DPS when the tank in party is competent enough on their own, or is a WAR.

[YukioKobayashi]

1. Never said we are -the resurrector-. I'm also aware that raising in some other games are NOT 'healer mechanic'. But that's besides the point: this game design clearly think it is 'healer thing'

In the Final Fantasy universe - raising was NEVER a healer only thing. The Phoenix Down is the most common way to raise in all FF titles except XIV.

I dont really know why healer mains are complaining. You guys wont see a DPS raising another DPS, sitting there for a 8sec long cast. Its for the times you healermains are bitting the dust in an expertdunegon again. For the times you guys have failed doing mechanics while doing the braindead glare spam.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]I dont really know why healer mains are complaining. You guys wont see a DPS raising another DPS, sitting there for a 8sec long cast.[...]

If you bothered to read further, then you'll see that I laid out a possible reason why some are yelling - twice in fact in this same page.

Also strange that plenty of SMNs I see in DF would gladly sit still 8s to hardcast their raise once they've spent their Swiftcast. Anywhere. Not just 4-mans. Hey who knows it's different in EU? :P

[Rithy255]

Ok but the most miserable part of the game is when this happens and I have to watch yall play the game + steal my job as healer. You're a tank, you're not supposed to be keeping up your dps, *that is my job.*

Ok but why does healer have to be boring one button mage jobs. I like being a "Paladin" that supports my group, Frankly healer gameplay is so dull that doing it on a tank like Paladin where you have a actual rotation is night and day to how much more fun it is, Healing on healer is genuinely so dull, I generally play healers but FF14 healers are so poorly designed that Tank is the only role that has any appeal to me (Even then its flawed with how tanks are super defensive).

It should be the responsibility of the Tank and Healer to keep the party alive, both are support roles you can't tell me that tanks job should only be to mitigate and manage aggro because that's done automatically, This game doesn't offer "Healers" outside the traditional mage archetype, the fact that Tanks can be a more melee focused support based role is a good thing.

In the FULL Post I even mentioned to fix tanks and healers, because unlike healer mains who only care about healer design and cry that tanks like Paladin have access to healing skills, do not care about tanks enjoyment or identity when it comes to rebalancing the roles I think it should be BOTH the Healer and Tanks responsibility to keep their team alive.

That or they can make a actual healer job that isn't in a robe only casting spells, I don't see why Healers should only appeal to people who enjoy spamming one button and have to all be full on mages.

[Supersnow845]

Ok but why does healer have to be boring one button mage jobs. I like being a "Paladin" that supports my group, Frankly healer gameplay is so dull that doing it on a tank like Paladin where you have a actual rotation is night and day to how much more fun it is, Healing on healer is genuinely so dull, I generally play healers but FF14 healers are so poorly designed that Tank is the only role that has any appeal to me (Even then its flawed with how tanks are super defensive).

It should be the responsibility of the Tank and Healer to keep the party alive, both are support roles you can't tell me that tanks job should only be to mitigate and manage aggro because that's done automatically, This game doesn't offer "Healers" outside the traditional mage archetype, the fact that Tanks can be a more melee focused support based role is a good thing.

In the FULL Post I even mentioned to fix tanks and healers, because unlike healer mains who only care about healer design and cry that tanks like Paladin have access to healing skills, do not care about tanks enjoyment or identity when it comes to rebalancing the roles I think it should be BOTH the Healer and Tanks responsibility to keep their team alive.

That or they can make a actual healer job that isn't in a robe only casting spells, I don't see why Healers should only appeal to people who enjoy spamming one button and have to all be full on mages.

You’ve correctly identified that tanks have had agro responsibility ripped out of them and that they have near nothing else to compensate. Then also that healers have been made boring as hell.

But it’s not like that’s healers fault or intended design direction. Tanks support the party by not letting people die to enemies, healers heal the party, why is the solution “let’s all share the healing” and not “ask for the tank mechanics they ripped out of tanks back”

Like it’s not healers fault that they only make white robbed healers