#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[Gwenkatsu]

But, if SE were to offer current WHM, and this WHM, side by side, and ask players 'which do you prefer' in a PTR style environment, I have difficulty believing that the majority of players would vote for the current WHM. Mostly because the above would be 'current WHM, but it has more of everything, more attacks, more healing actions, more mitigative options it desperately needs'. And why wouldn't we as players want more?

I have to agree and disagree at the same time.

Yes, most people on the PTR would agree - which is directly related to the kind of demographic that visits a PTR (or even knows that one exists, and how to reach it).
No, people in the wild would disagree, when they have to relearn their favourite healer role from scratch (yes, there are people that like White Mage /shocked picachu face/ ).

Take me for example. I didn't even read that change list of yours, as it was much too long for my liking. I would not be happy when I had to figure out all this changes through my tooltips when a new patch drops.

Make it a new job, and I would definitely give it a closer look. Throw my favourite healer in the shredder, and I will be very unhappy.

[Supersnow845]

I have to agree and disagree at the same time.

Yes, most people on the PTR would agree - which is directly related to the kind of demographic that visits a PTR (or even knows that one exists, and how to reach it).
No, people in the wild would disagree, when they have to relearn their favourite healer role from scratch (yes, there are people that like White Mage /shocked picachu face/ ).

Take me for example. I didn't even read that change list of yours, as it was much too long for my liking. I would not be happy when I had to figure out all this changes through my tooltips when a new patch drops.

Make it a new job, and I would definitely give it a closer look. Throw my favourite healer in the shredder, and I will be very unhappy.

Though to be fair all of the healers have been sent through the shredder multiple times so (and I know this isn’t what you are are necessarily arguing you are simply replying to forsaken implying the vast majority of people don’t lean either way) the current iteration likely doesn’t have many more people specifically attached to it than any other

Like if I suggested the return of aero 3 would you support that? It is WHM as much as Lily’s are for example

[ForsakenRoe]

Take me for example. I didn't even read that change list of yours, as it was much too long for my liking. I would not be happy when I had to figure out all this changes through my tooltips when a new patch drops.

Make it a new job, and I would definitely give it a closer look. Throw my favourite healer in the shredder, and I will be very unhappy.

I would assume that an amount of changes like this, especially considering it'd require UI work (to implement the new gauge element) would be an expansion update, not a random patch. I'd say that this amount of changes is pretty on par with what other jobs sometimes see with expansion changes. SMN and MCH are prime examples, the amount of changes they received for their 6.0 and 5.0 reworks respectively is larger than what I listed for the hypothetical WHM. Or how about the 6.3 PLD rework, that one's a good example, because that happened in a patch instead of an expansion:




A lot of these are just potency tweaks, sure. But it undeniably shook up the rotation, how certain actions functioned, how they interact (eg FOF granting access to Goring Blade instead of it being a DOT in a combo), and even added back an old button. And so people had to read their tooltips, to learn how the job now works. I would posit that the WHM ideas I posted, are quite comparable in scope to this: they are both reworks of a sort, after all. If such changes were added, you're saying you'd flat out refuse to read the tooltips to learn how it works? Would you try to play it as you previously were before the patch, out of protest? Because I hate to disappoint, but thanks to the potency system, it's possible to make the potencies add up such that doing so (playing as if the patch never occured) would be perfectly functional. You'd still be able to clear things, just as previously, perhaps even more effectively by making certain things more powerful.

For example, the suggested trait for Cure3 that you say you didn't read. 'When you have Medica2 active on yourself, the MP cost of Cure3 is halved'. So you would have more MP to work with in spam-healing scenarios. Is that, making Cure3 more accessible to use without fear of bottoming out on MP, 'throwing WHM into the shredder'? How about the bonus effect addition for Thin Air that you apparently skipped over, wherein the free spell is also instant cast (yes even Raise), is making WHM stronger at raising party members 'throwing it in the shredder'? Raising allies, hitting massive Cure3's, using Protect to reduce damage to allies, these are things that are as WHM as it gets IMO. Is giving WHM more gameplay like that of a WHM from older games, 'throwing WHM in the shredder'? I think we have very different perceptions of what a WHM is

I think that another thing that doesn't get considered, is that we're level 100 in our Jobs. We already went through the tutorial of levelling, so all these changes at once look scary to some. But a new player would have an even easier time adjusting, because they'd get given each part of the 'changes' over time, instead of all at once. And thanks to some of the changes literally being just 'hey what if we had a lower-level version of this action, so that new players get extra tools to play with while levelling, and they get to learn good habits that are useful at endgame (eg prioritizing using damage neutral healing via Lilies over MP spells) as they level so they build muscle memory', the levelling process would be more interesting to said player, which might go some way towards player retention for the role. Plus, it'd help make lower level roulettes for experienced players more interesting. For example, there's a 12 level gap (18-30) where you don't learn any new Job/Class actions, just Role Actions (Lucid and Swiftcast)! Very engaging for a new player, I'm sure. But with those lower level versions of existing actions, we'd be able to add stuff to break up that 12 level gap

You are kind of correct, in that yes, it could be added as a new job instead of as an update to an existing one. But that comes with additional issues, such as requiring more dev time for creating VFX, sounds, character animations, etc. When I first came up with those ideas, one of my main guiding principles was to keep devtime/implementation time requirements as low as possible, by minimizing the amount of extra buttons added, reusing existing VFX for things (eg the whole Water line already exists ingame as enemy attacks), etc. And besides all of that, if it were a new job, I think it's pretty obvious what would occur. People would see this cool new job, which would have more healing output than WHM, more mobility than WHM, more mitigation options than WHM, a more fun damage rotation than WHM for levelling/dungeon trash/whatever. It would be, by design, 'WHM but better' in every metric, and they'd ask the simple and painfully obvious question: 'Why wasn't this an update for WHM?'

[Kohashi]

snip'

I think the PLD rework was nice. It made more sense and was a lot less janky. The rotation was very different, sure, but classes change rotation every few levels when leveling, for example, anyway.

I still don't know why SE should really change WHM. What's wrong with having a pure healer that is simple, intuitive, and straight to the point?

Not everything has to be a thesis for string theory and a million interactions and things to keep track of to be "interesting".

I do however, agree that they should rethink in some way to make synch down to low levels a lot more engaging and interesting. Because classes are done to function best at max level, synch down feels like garbage.

I don't know what solution they could implement, to allow to still keep low-level content relevant and also just not slap a sync similar to GW2 for example.

[Supersnow845]

I think the PLD rework was nice. It made more sense and was a lot less janky. The rotation was very different, sure, but classes change rotation every few levels when leveling, for example, anyway.

I still don't know why SE should really change WHM. What's wrong with having a pure healer that is simple, intuitive, and straight to the point?

Not everything has to be a thesis for string theory and a million interactions and things to keep track of to be "interesting".

I do however, agree that they should rethink in some way to make synch down to low levels a lot more engaging and interesting. Because classes are done to function best at max level, synch down feels like garbage.

I don't know what solution they could implement, to allow to still keep low-level content relevant and also just not slap a sync similar to GW2 for example.

WHM is at a point where if they won’t change the content design then WHM needs to change out of necessity. WHM is the closest this game has to a useless class considering it’s (limited) potential niches are all simply things the games design does not care about. It’s the modern healer equivalent of the HW PLD problem; fiercely powerful in a very narrow niche that simply has no practical application and “fine at best annoyance at worst” in every other situation

It’s a difficulty thing to balance because WHM is well loved by its playerbase, but not particularly well loved outside of it. Normally I’d be totally fine to go “if you don’t like it don’t play it” but WHM’s design affects the other healers as well. With two equally competant players (hell an orange WHM and a blue AST for a more extreme example) AST is simply better in every way for the shield healer. No other job exists in a situation where its mere existence simply makes others jobs harder.

I don’t necessarily believe WHM should be changed if it’s playerbase doesn’t want it changed but nor do I believe it’s fair on the part of the shield healers to have to routinely deal with a class who’s identity can be best summed up as “I externalise my own complexity onto the shield healer”

[ForsakenRoe]

I think the PLD rework was nice. It made more sense and was a lot less janky. The rotation was very different, sure, but classes change rotation every few levels when leveling, for example, anyway.

I still don't know why SE should really change WHM. What's wrong with having a pure healer that is simple, intuitive, and straight to the point?
Not everything has to be a thesis for string theory and a million interactions and things to keep track of to be "interesting".

I do however, agree that they should rethink in some way to make synch down to low levels a lot more engaging and interesting. Because classes are done to function best at max level, synch down feels like garbage.
I don't know what solution they could implement, to allow to still keep low-level content relevant and also just not slap a sync similar to GW2 for example.

The issue is, when it comes to healers, that for some, the rotation (in terms of GCDs) stops changing at level four.

I might be biased when I look at it, but I think that even with the listed changes, WHM would remain simple, intuitive and straight to the point. What string theory and million interactions did I list? That casting spells would build a gauge? In fact, one bizarre 'unintuitive' quirk would actually be fixed with those changes: Medica1 is 15y range, Medica2/Medica3/Rapture are all 20y range. With those changes, Medica1 would also presumably be made to be 20y so that it can smoothy upgrade to Medica2 without suddenly changing in range.

My suggestion is already given: Lower level versions of abilities, that later upgrade into what we know now. Divine Seal used to exist. It was removed, and replaced with the role action Largesse. That was then removed, and WHM gained Temperance. All three of these actions had the effect of 'increases Healing Magic potency by X%'. So, just reintroduce Divine Seal at like, level 40, and have it upgrade to Temperance at level 80, where it would gain the mitigative effect in addition to the Healing Magic part. We see this already with our attacks (Stone 1/2/3/4, Glare/Glare3), or the new tank 2min CDs (their 30%s have become 40%s, plus gained a bonus effect depending on the Tank), or Inner Beast upgrading to Fell Cleave, or Edge/Flood of Darkness upgrading to Edge/Flood of Shadow, or Danger Zone upgrading to Blasting Zone, or Raw Intuition upgrading to Bloodwhetting, or Sheltron into Holy Sheltron, or MNK's chakra spenders (Steel Peak/Howling Fist) upgrading into TFC/Enlightenment, or SMN's summons going from Carbuncles, to Egis, to Demiprimals. So just do the same with the Healer kits. Or at the very least, spread the existing actions out better

edit

WHM is at a point where if they won’t change the content design then WHM needs to change out of necessity

It’s a difficulty thing to balance because WHM is well loved by its playerbase, but not particularly well loved outside of it

This tier has really felt to me like the dev team tested the content with an AST/SGE comp. WHM and SCH (can't speak to AST, I don't play it since the rework) really feel like they're designed for older versions of the game, and if they're updating the battle design to be more modern, then the healer designs will need to change, out of necessity, to keep up, else they'll just feel clunky and out of place whenever we do newer fights

Funny thing, AST has more recorded clears than WHM in this tier. Is this because AST is so good at certain things (eg add phase M6S), because WHM is not so good at said things, because AST's rework is a shining success, or some other factor we are not privy to? Who knows

As for 'WHM is 'fiercely powerful in a very narrow niche that simply has no practical application and “fine at best annoyance at worst” in every other situation', even that 'fiercely powerful' part is debatable. It has always annoyed me that the reasoning of 'why is WHM regarded as the king of HPS' boils down to 'it can spam Cure3'. Yeh, and you run completely out of MP after casting it 7 times. Meanwhile, AST is over here with a potential AOE Benediction via Macrocosmos, SGE has HPS attached to its Mit and Mit attached to its HPS so it literally can't help but 2x the HPS contribution of the Pure Healer at times, and SCH now has a button that not only lets it become the Cure3 spamming WHM, it even has a higher potency than Cure3 when you use it (and it's instantcast!) No matter how you slice it, WHM is just... behind the times, designwise

[Kohashi]

WHM is at a point where if they won’t change the content design then WHM needs to change out of necessity. WHM is the closest this game has to a useless class considering it’s (limited) potential niches are all simply things the games design does not care about. It’s the modern healer equivalent of the HW PLD problem; fiercely powerful in a very narrow niche that simply has no practical application and “fine at best annoyance at worst” in every other situation

It’s a difficulty thing to balance because WHM is well loved by its playerbase, but not particularly well loved outside of it. Normally I’d be totally fine to go “if you don’t like it don’t play it” but WHM’s design affects the other healers as well. With two equally competant players (hell an orange WHM and a blue AST for a more extreme example) AST is simply better in every way for the shield healer. No other job exists in a situation where its mere existence simply makes others jobs harder.

I don’t necessarily believe WHM should be changed if it’s playerbase doesn’t want it changed but nor do I believe it’s fair on the part of the shield healers to have to routinely deal with a class who’s identity can be best summed up as “I externalise my own complexity onto the shield healer”

pure BS and nonsense. whm can do every single piece of content from casual to midcore or hardcore, which to me it means that whm has a good design and is versatile enough to handle all manner of difficulty spikes.

While AST does have more utility, it lacks the pure and sheer HP burst that WHM has. They offer very different gameplay, but ultimately, they fill the same gaps.

The issue is, when it comes to healers, that for some, the rotation (in terms of GCDs) stops changing at level four.

I do personally find it extremely annoying how some reduce healers to "oh I press X times Glare". Yeah, and? Healers are not just "glare," and healing rotations do exist. Talking in such a reductive tone about healers makes the entire argument just stupid.

One thing is certain for me: I don't want to have a full DPS rotation, and I don't want to be just a healer. While design can be improved, I don't think SE did a horrible job in class design.

[Supersnow845]

This tier has really felt to me like the dev team tested the content with an AST/SGE comp. WHM and SCH (can't speak to AST, I don't play it since the rework) really feel like they're designed for older versions of the game, and if they're updating the battle design to be more modern, then the healer designs will need to change, out of necessity, to keep up, else they'll just feel clunky and out of place whenever we do newer fights

Funny thing, AST has more recorded clears than WHM in this tier. Is this because AST is so good at certain things (eg add phase M6S), because WHM is not so good at said things, because AST's rework is a shining success, or some other factor we are not privy to? Who knows

As for 'WHM is 'fiercely powerful in a very narrow niche that simply has no practical application and “fine at best annoyance at worst” in every other situation', even that 'fiercely powerful' part is debatable. It has always annoyed me that the reasoning of 'why is WHM regarded as the king of HPS' boils down to 'it can spam Cure3'. Yeh, and you run completely out of MP after casting it 7 times. Meanwhile, AST is over here with a potential AOE Benediction via Macrocosmos, SGE has HPS attached to its Mit and Mit attached to its HPS so it literally can't help but 2x the HPS contribution of the Pure Healer at times, and SCH now has a button that not only lets it become the Cure3 spamming WHM, it even has a higher potency than Cure3 when you use it (and it's instantcast!) No matter how you slice it, WHM is just... behind the times, designwise

Besides SCH being uniquely awful damage wise at 6’s add phase I think SCH is at the point where it’s so ridiculously powerful they dont actually have to test it. If any healer comp can clear it then SCH will be the strongest healer at it, it’s always been that way. This tier doesn’t really feel like it does anything to help WHM shine but then again when does any tier ever do that

I don’t really think it’s cure 3 that is the core of WHM’s HPS design, it’s simply the fact that when push comes to shove and you need healing RIGHT NOW WHM is uniquely able to dump it out. Sure cure 3 but also rapture, plenary, asylum, temperance, lilybell. No other healer can heal everyone’s HP bars 3 times over in 10 seconds. It’s never a useful ability but it does exist if anyone ever actually asked for it

pure BS and nonsense. whm can do every single piece of content from casual to midcore or hardcore, which to me it means that whm has a good design and is versatile enough to handle all manner of difficulty spikes.

While AST does have more utility, it lacks the pure and sheer HP burst that WHM has. They offer very different gameplay, but ultimately, they fill the same gaps.

Literally every class can do every content, you may as well have said “it has good design because you can select it in the menu”

Regardless WHM is the core of one of the few comps that simply ISNT viable and that’s the double regen healer comp. WHM struggles to actually hold its own in high tier content often overly relying on the shield healer to cover its deficits, AST certainly isn’t the problem in the double regen comp

[Kohashi]

The PLD dework was diabolical. They removed everything that made the job unique and interesting and turned it into a boring version of GNB.

I'm sure the entire PLD being "excluded" from parties because while it was unique, it just offered nothing special or enough damage to warrant their admission.

Literally every class can do every content, you may as well have said “it has good design because you can select it in the menu”

Regardless WHM is the core of one of the few comps that simply ISNT viable and that’s the double regen healer comp. WHM struggles to actually hold its own in high tier content often overly relying on the shield healer to cover its deficits, AST certainly isn’t the problem in the double regen comp

That's literally it! The entire philosophy behind SE design, to be able to do every content regardless of the class.

You didn't elaborate (unless I missed) how it guts other classes, so I do insist on actually shedding light on what you originally meant. And to add to the elaborate please, do include which high content WHM cannot hold it's own?

While double shield healers has some merits in some places, it's far suboptimal to actually run that opposed to pure + shield.

As for AST, not only do they need a shield to cover their deficit, but they cannot also appropriately respond if things go south. AST will NEVER be able to burst heal with 0 preparation a team the same way WHM can. I know AST is nice but you shit on whm for the wrong reasons..lol.

[BigCheez]

I think the PLD rework was nice. It made more sense and was a lot less janky. The rotation was very different, sure, but classes change rotation every few levels when leveling, for example, anyway.

I still don't know why SE should really change WHM. What's wrong with having a pure healer that is simple, intuitive, and straight to the point?

Not everything has to be a thesis for string theory and a million interactions and things to keep track of to be "interesting".

I do however, agree that they should rethink in some way to make synch down to low levels a lot more engaging and interesting. Because classes are done to function best at max level, synch down feels like garbage.

I don't know what solution they could implement, to allow to still keep low-level content relevant and also just not slap a sync similar to GW2 for example.

The PLD dework was diabolical. They removed everything that made the job unique and interesting and turned it into a boring version of GNB.