Yuweyawata Field Station is so wrong

[Mawlzy]

Yesterday i did Leveling roulette, i got the outpost.

The enemies and first boss died suspiciously slow, so i observed what the black mage was doing and observed that he was only casting fire 1 and fire 3 like you do on lvl 50, he also switched back to ice while still having half of his MP.
When i told him he is casting the wrong spells and maybe should look up how to play black mage, the response was:

"It is just a dungeon, who cares"
He then wanted to tell me that i play Warrior wrong and if he should explain how to do it right.
The Open minded person i am, i said, "sure go ahead".
"Nah it is just a dungeon, doesnt matter" he said..

Well at the last boss i must have accidentaly turned off my tank stance and shirked him, so he died to a tankbuster, which got him a little mad, but i said i "It is just a dungeon, mistakes happen"

after all i don't know how to play Warrior.

This has nothing to do with why some people find content hard.

Unfortunately there are few players likely to share their difficulties on these boards because they can see they'll expose themselves to ridicule.

Xapapetsu tells us "no casual content is hard."

The statement is ridiculous. The difficulty of content is largely subjective. One can discuss relative levels of difficulty in the same kind of content. Clearly "normal" content is less difficult than EX, Savage, Ult. So what?

Is tensor calculus hard? Not to me. I'm a retired mathematician.

Is driving a Formula 1 card hard? Very hard for me, I'm blind in one eye.

Is chess hard? Backgammon? Skiing? Mountain climbing? Tetris?

Different people excel at different things.

Unfortunately the one thing many in this thread excel at is being completely dismissive of the struggles of others, stating categorically it the problem is that "people just want to shut their brain off."

Why would they do that? Why pay for a game with which you refuse to engage. It's completely implausible.

Sure you'll find individuals on occasion dogging a dungeon. Frontline is plagued by people just there for the rewards who literally AFK. That's not who we're talking about.

All that said, I like your solution in the dungeon. Vote dismiss is also available, and this individual was arguably breaking ToS.

[Arohk]

Xapapetsu tells us "no casual content is hard.

This is correct, but buying a game, or any game, doesnt entitle you to also win at that game, you pay to own and play it, if you are unable to finish it, that is on you.

Why should the game be made so mindnumbingly easy that you should still succeed while doing everything wrong?
Every time i see someone complaining about the difficulty of the game, they are doing everything wrong to begin with, bad UI, bad Hud, clicking their skills, generally not dodging any mechanics unless there is a big circle under them. In general not giving a damn about their performance.

Here is what FFXIV SHOULD do, just a few examples.

- reduce the button bloat on all jobs (max 15-20 hotkeys instead of 30)
- consolidate combos to one button (optional settings, and/or custimization for combos like some plugins have it)
- add a dps meter for everyone, so you can see how you perform. (nobody knows how bad they are if they can't compare to other players)
- add more newbie Arena tutorials that teach all mechanics and different types of markers. *mandatory to progress MSQ.

[Mawlzy]

This is correct, but buying a game, or any game, doesnt entitle you to also win at that game, you pay to own and play it, if you are unable to finish it, that is on you.

Why should the game be made so mindnumbingly easy that you should still succeed while doing everything wrong?
Every time i see someone complaining about the difficulty of the game, they are doing everything wrong to begin with, bad UI, bad Hud, clicking their skills, generally not dodging any mechanics unless there is a big circle under them. In general not giving a damn about their performance.

Here is what FFXIV SHOULD do, just a few examples.

- reduce the button bloat on all jobs (max 15-20 hotkeys instead of 30)
- consolidate combos to one button (optional settings, and/or custimization for combos like some plugins have it)
- add a dps meter for everyone, so you can see how you perform. (nobody knows how bad they are if they can't compare to other players)
- add more newbie Arena tutorials that teach all mechanics and different types of markers. *mandatory to progress MSQ.

I'm fine with all your suggestions. I think all would help players better learn their jobs and game mechanics. But the assertion made by some in this thread is that struggling players willfully refuse to learn their jobs and the game mechanics. While I don't believe this, your suggestions would do nothing to address this hypothetical population. Further, many struggling players care deeply about their performance and are painfully aware that in higher level MSQ dungeons it falls short of the median.

Your assumption that all weak players are weak because they don't try hard enough is simply wrong.

As to "winning" the game, that is a concept that simply doesn't apply to MMOs. Combat constitutes a tiny fraction of the overall available content. For many, that combat is very far from "mindnumbingly easy." You might as well claim the only way to win the game is to follow Cider Spider and get all available achievements.

[ThurinTurambar]

Both perspectives are fair. On one side, game has been teaching you its combat language for x expansions straight, if you dont have the mental capacity to notice that and learn or are too lazy to do so then sorry, it aint game's fault.
On the other hand Dawntrail dungeons have many quick-paced mechanics which i could see a casual would find hard and daunting.

Problem begins when said casual player demands that those stress points be removed. Instead of trying to force the game to be boring for others maybe take mental notes on what the mechanic was and be prepared later? Another good approach is to accept that sometimes you will die or even wipe. Does this mean the dungeon is too hard? Absolutely not.

[Arohk]

Combat constitutes a tiny fraction of the overall available content.

wrong, the MSQ is the tiny fraction of the content, Fighting Bosses is the majority of what the game has to offer, yes there are non-combat activities like crafting or housing, but combat is the main content that is repeatable, or is the entire goal to just beat the Story and then not play anymore until one new quest comes along? there are better or cheaper alternatives than waiting months for a tiny drop of new story that is done in half an hour(if you dont skip the dialogue).

Your assumption that all weak players are weak because they don't try hard enough is simply wrong.

I am not saying they aren't trying, i am saying the game does a terrible job at teaching how to play. And is also very inaccesible due to the overbloated amount of skills.
Those who don't even care to improve are the worst anyway.

Hence it even took me a whole lot of effort back in Shadowbringes(thast when i started the game) to learn how to play properly, only once i started to do Savage Eden i actually had to do it, because i never had to engage with the nuances and optimizations before that point, i really thought i am not that terrible at the game but i had no idea how shit i was.

[Mawlzy]

Both perspectives are fair. On one side, game has been teaching you its combat language for x expansions straight, if you dont have the mental capacity to notice that and learn or are too lazy to do so then sorry, it aint game's fault.
On the other hand Dawntrail dungeons have many quick-paced mechanics which i could see a casual would find hard and daunting.

Problem begins when said casual player demands that those stress points be removed. Instead of trying to force the game to be boring for others maybe take mental notes on what the mechanic was and be prepared later? Another good approach is to accept that sometimes you will die or even wipe. Does this mean the dungeon is too hard? Absolutely not.

Who decides what is appropriately hard? The devs!? Working on microping, and within a gaming culture completely divorced from NA/EU.

I agree wiping doesn't make a dungeon too hard. But I must have wiped a twenty times in Origenics running it with NPCs. That was incredibly boring for me and others I have spoken to say the same.

As I've repeatedly said, if part of the player base wants harder MSQ dungeons, and another part does not, it's (way past) time for dual-track difficulty.

[Mawlzy]

wrong, the MSQ is the tiny fraction of the content, Fighting Bosses is the majority of what the game has to offer, yes there are non-combat activities like crafting or housing, but combat is the main content that is repeatable, or is the entire goal to just beat the Story and then not play anymore until one new quest comes along? there are better or cheaper alternatives than waiting months for a tiny drop of new story that is done in half an hour(if you dont skip the dialogue).



I am not saying they aren't trying, i am saying the game does a terrible job at teaching how to play. And is also very inaccesible due to the overbloated amount of skills.
Those who don't even care to improve are the worst anyway.

Hence it even took me a whole lot of effort back in Shadowbringes(thast when i started the game) to learn how to play properly, only once i started to do Savage Eden i actually had to do it, because i never had to engage with the nuances and optimizations before that point, i really thought i am not that terrible at the game but i had no idea how shit i was.

Again, this simply isn't true. Most of NA/EU engage in no combat beyond normal and run most MSQ dungeons precisely once.

I mostly play PvP. As such, my time engaged in dungeons/trials is no more than 2% of my total engagement with the game. This is common.

I spend more time playing triple triad than in dungeons/trials, and I'm not that fond of triple triad.

[Arohk]

Again, this simply isn't true. Most of NA/EU engage in no combat beyond normal and run most MSQ dungeons precisely once.

i would like to see some hard data for that claim.

[ThurinTurambar]

Who decides what is appropriately hard? The devs!? Working on microping, and within a gaming culture completely divorced from NA/EU.

I agree wiping doesn't make a dungeon too hard. But I must have wiped a twenty times in Origenics running it with NPCs. That was incredibly boring for me and others I have spoken to say the same.

As I've repeatedly said, if part of the player base wants harder MSQ dungeons, and another part does not, it's (way past) time for dual-track difficulty.

Devs working on very low ping is bit of a problem, sure. Would not agree that it matters in casual content. I once believed that Golbez extreme was 'fast'. Then i sought out harder content and when i came back, it was almost as if playing in slow motion, which leads me to say, playing more regularly reduces your 'mental ping'. Devs making the content assume you are an average player, doing at least some combat content weekly and thus have a bit of know-how.

Interesting that you mention running it with trusts. In my opinion it should not be a main way of doing content in mmo. I believe it should be treated as backup in case the duty finder is truely dead.
Doing it with players is usually much easier as you can rely on others. If you make a mistake, others will lift you up, while npcs will not. Others can help you understand what went wrong or prevent it alltogether.
Its a god damn social game after all.

Sure u might run into "bad" players sometimes, be it gameplay bad or personality bad. You solve that by talking with them. It is truely rare that you meet a player that will cause problems that cant be resolved with talking.


Another thing u mentioned in the other comment is your engagement with the game and its content. I would not agree that people spending 2% of the time engaging with combat is that common. And certainly its not an average player experience.
Does it not stand to reason that combat content should be tailored to people that are... actually playing the combat content? I personally hate this game's pvp but did a bit to get cosmetics, i might want some more in future. But i will not demand to make pvp fit my liking, as its not what i do often and others enjoy its current state.

[Mawlzy]

Devs working on very low ping is bit of a problem, sure. Would not agree that it matters in casual content. I once believed that Golbez extreme was 'fast'. Then i sought out harder content and when i came back, it was almost as if playing in slow motion, which leads me to say, playing more regularly reduces your 'mental ping'. Devs making the content assume you are an average player, doing at least some combat content weekly and thus have a bit of know-how.

Interesting that you mention running it with trusts. In my opinion it should not be a main way of doing content in mmo. I believe it should be treated as backup in case the duty finder is truely dead.
Doing it with players is usually much easier as you can rely on others. If you make a mistake, others will lift you up, while npcs will not. Others can help you understand what went wrong or prevent it alltogether.
Its a god damn social game after all.

Sure u might run into "bad" players sometimes, be it gameplay bad or personality bad. You solve that by talking with them. It is truely rare that you meet a player that will cause problems that cant be resolved with talking.


Another thing u mentioned in the other comment is your engagement with the game and its content. I would not agree that people spending 2% of the time engaging with combat is that common. And certainly its not an average player experience.
Does it not stand to reason that combat content should be tailored to people that are... actually playing the combat content? I personally hate this game's pvp but did a bit to get cosmetics, i might want some more in future. But i will not demand to make pvp fit my liking, as its not what i do often and others enjoy its current state.

I recognize some players think PvE in this game is interesting. I'd be happy for them if MSQ dungeons were harder. Hence the dual-track suggestion.

You mention you don't wish to change PvP to meet your needs. Understood. The issue here is that MSQ combat gates the MSQ. It is required content unlike anything else in the game. The reason you find it so easy is it's attempting to to appeal to all players. This is a mistake. Nobody is happy. Again, dual-track is a solution.

I'd also agree that running dungeons with players is preferable to playing with NPCs. But at the current level of difficulty I choose not to be carried by more skilled players and slow them down. They frequently seem to be in a hurry.