#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[Rithy255]

I've said previously, I'll say it again, adjusting tanks kits (and I stress adjusting) is only part of the answer and alone simply treats a symptom of the problem rather than addressing the problem itself. If nothing does enough damage to threaten us then what need is there for tanks? Much less healers. Therefore while reining in the most egregious tank skills is something that should happen, it should be in conjunction with a general rebalance of incoming damage throughout the game. I did Copperbell Mines just now and a telegraphed AOE on second boss did more damage than first boss' tank buster, my pocket tank who previously defended this tank buster when I mentioned it to them previously suddenly saw my point, it did 95 damage to them with no mits that I saw, that is to say "it did nothing, if not for the flashy effect it wouldn't have been noticed at all". Sure, this is baby's third dungeon and baby sprout is learning, so why are they being taught that what tank mechanics exist are completely ignorable?

While I might not advocate for the first tankbuster you see being multiple times the tank's HP and insta-killing an unsuspecting player (though I DO advocate that past level 50, your basic tutorial is OVER at that point, time to start improving your play), it should be enough that both tank and healer are forced to pay attention and learn that tank busters are actually a threat.

Thank you, I find this post refreshing and actually doesn't aim to just blame tanks or dps for healer issues, I think it's important that yes some skills are overtuned on tanks, bloodwhetting for example you can never balance that skill to be fair in a AOE situation. In general it's a issue with How little tanks take.

I also believe bosses could even make use of skills like intervention, TBN ect. Where a ally healer or dps will take high damage, Either the tank or healer can be enough to save them, instances of high AOE damage and DOT debuffs with raid wides ect, Let pulls hurt even more, let me do even more big pulls as a tank (like mt.gulg that dungeon had some pretty thrilling pulls)

Let us actually Use our kits as tanks and healers. This is the more productive path of actually making both roles feel good in dungeons, raids ect, also have this reflect on hard content where healers and tanks are both needed.

[Supersnow845]

I think you’ll find there is few people here who don’t see that the unbalance of the trinity originates from tanks functionally not having a role mechanic. That’s commonly understood and few people disagree with that

The thing is though this thread is primarily about healer grievances. Like sure I sympathise with tanks functionally not having a role mechanic, but to me as a healer first and foremost tanks doing my role because they don’t have a role is more important to me than fixing tanks lack of a role because if they fixed tanks lack of a role right now they’d probably just leave the self healing in and healers would still have nothing

Tanks need more to do and more reason to interact with their kit so that they don’t fill the void with healing, but in the healer thread the problems of tank healing usurping the healer role are more important than why tanks are usurping the healer role. Especially since when tanks shoved us out we didn’t get anything in compensation, we are still designed like the tanks are as squishy as your average caster

I don’t hate tanks (tanking is my secondary main) but you have to understand you are going to find limited sympathy for the lack of tank mechanics here when the lack of tank mechanics just caused them to usurp healer mechanics with little compensation

[BDBlaffy]

I just want to point out that Aurora is no where near close to being "weak/not worth it". In it's current iteration, even accounting for the maim and mend trait on healers, it does a total of 1260 healing potency (again potency that is adjusted to match what a healer role heal potency is) on a single use, is an oGCD, has 2 charges, and is only on a 60 second cooldown. Simply in raw mathamatical terms, this is an insane amount of healing output for a non healer role to have. It's literally more powerful than a lot of healer oGCDs, and encroches on the pure healer's GCD regens like Aspected Benefic or Regen which are both only 1500 potency. Every tank in the game has egregious amounts of healing, it's not just Aurora. But I just wanted to say that in terms of pure mathamatics calling it any varient of weak is just factually incorrect.

[Supersnow845]

Yeah I think in the soup tanks have lost sight of just how powerful their buttons are. The amount of people who’ve dismissed my point that HS’s heal is way too strong is hilarious

Like it’s a 40% mitigation with a 700 healer potency heal on like a 20 second CD. That’s the kinda healing your healer should be putting out, not your tank

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

I feel like people finding Aurora 'weak' because they are more susceptible to becoming overheals, does not comes as a burst heal, or combination of both. To give people a perspective, I did a bit of firsthand testing in-game without accounting criticals.

GNB (i727)
Aurora (60s) = 69k in total.
HoC (25s) = 34k. Adding this just for an extra!

Now compare that to...

WHM (i727)
Tetragrammaton (60s) = 36k.
Regen (GCD) = 82.5k. Adding this one here as an extra as well!

I like to use Tetragrammaton as a comparison to Aurora because both come with 60s. Both has 2 charges by capstone level. If people feel better by looking at HoT to HoT comparison, sure we have the recently added DT Ewer which amounts to... 54.4k healing per shot. With what's effectively a 2m cooldown. Is Aurora obscenely powerful? Well if you compare that to Bloody-whetting, everything just pales in comparison. But that's still yet another small prick of an issue being added to the camel's back. One Aurora from you = One less 'Tetra'/<insert any oGCD here> from me. Even more mindless spamming for me.

[ForsakenRoe]

I want Tank mains and/or SE to answer, simply:

Take Dawntrail PLD.

1: Replace the 400p selfheal of Holy Spirit/Circle, Confiteor, and the Blades combo, with a 400p self-barrier effect that lasts 9s. Additional applications add more 'layers' (like Panhaima), so that you don't 'lose' effectiveness by using the Blade combo (which would overwrite a non-stacking barrier). Adding a new 'stack' refreshes the 9s timer, so timing your Holy Spirit proc usage to extend your self-protection duration could be an interesting new optimization avenue.

2: Replace the 4 ticks of 250p selfhealing from Holy Sheltron and Intervention, and replace them with '4 layers of 250p of barrier' that last for 12s. Using a second Holy Sheltron adds another 4 stacks, but only refreshes the duration to 12s.

3: Clemency stays as a 1000p heal, as it is not causing much of a problem due to being a GCD (ie it has a cost to your damage to use it)

With these changes in mind, how does this improve/detract from PLD gameplay?

I would argue that this would not nerf PLD, but actually BUFF it, as you'd have a 'free' 250p barrier attached to any Holy Sheltron you happen to use, 'overhealing' with the effects is not possible (instead you just run the risk of the barrier expiring before it gets used up), and all of the potencies being 1:1 means that you would have the same amount of 'self sustain', just, instead of it being via 'restore own HP', it's 'protect own HP from going down in the first place', which I think is far more thematic to Tanks. It wouldn't suddenly solve every issue with Healer gameplay, of course, but we gotta start somewhere, and this seems like as good a place as any

The same changes can also be applied to other Tanks as needed

[CKNovel]

The thing with Aurora is why does it even exist? Like there is nothing thematic about it, and I think this is becoming a wider problem with tank healing.

It's only to be the "self healing button", GNB has no healing tools but at the same time it's so weak you'll be at full health at half its duration or the incoming damage will stop.

I don't disagree Aurora doesn't thematically fits a tank, even if it was buffed to a point where it's relevant enough, it's still not fitting for a tank.
If you want my two cents, it should be a shield that slowly builds up, the effect would be similar, the HPS would be similar but it would see a lot more different plays. Or keep the HoT effect but add a bonus on healing received, which would thematically fits better the tank role.

Thought as Alice pointed out, it's a game issue. As long as we remain in this HP game trap, you'll still see Healerless/Tankless clears.

[Rithy255]

Yeah I think in the soup tanks have lost sight of just how powerful their buttons are. The amount of people who’ve dismissed my point that HS’s heal is way too strong is hilarious

Like it’s a 40% mitigation with a 700 healer potency heal on like a 20 second CD. That’s the kinda healing your healer should be putting out, not your tank

Just to Counter this

1. It's not even close to a "40%" mit, but to a extent I agree the Mitigation part should be more weak I'd value it at just making it one 20% instead of two 15%'s stacked.
2. It's limited to single target, Veil and shake are the only cases of AOE Healing, despite that I do think shake is too strong with the regen aspects, though I can agree that maybe we shouldn't really have the AOE heal on tanks even if its a weak 200-300 healer equal potency.
3. It's a regen not a burst heal, regens tend to be stronger in total potency at the cost of being slow, despite this one lilly skill from white mage already beats it ontop of white mage having other skills.
4. Holy Sheltron is based on auto's which makes it a non consistent 21s cooldown.

Not to say I'm not against removing healing from magic attacks on pld (that's a instance where it stacked with HS is too much) it's actually something I want I don't think it fits the theme of a paladin to heal from attacking a enemy personally. Holy sheltron on it's own is in no way comparable to the amount of healing a healer brings, I also disagree with aurora being buffed I've said this and i think the excog needs to be halved in potency

These "additional effects" also set the cooldowns apart at least making them somewhat different such as PLD having a HOT, while GNB has a burst heal.

I think it's you thats lost sight on tank cooldowns because you see a tank in a dungeon do your job for you and you see it as "well it's obviously the tanks fault for having too much healing cooldowns!" but in reality its the Mitigation and the lack of outgoing damage being the reason why you dont really need to heal.

[Supersnow845]

I think it's you thats lost sight on tank cooldowns because you see a tank in a dungeon do your job for you and you see it as "well it's obviously the tanks fault for having too much healing cooldowns!" but in reality its the Mitigation and the lack of outgoing damage being the reason why you dont really need to heal.

The thing is whether outgoing damage is too low or not (it is) every tank heal is one heal a healer doesn’t need to press. It is not lost on me how strong mitigation is and how low outgoing damage is but in a world where the damage is low enough that the tanks and healers are fighting over who’s healing gets to heal the limited amount of damage it should be the healer healing that damage. That’s not to say damage shouldn’t be higher anyway to allow both to meaningfully contribute but the answer to “there is so little damage tanks can heal it alone and square won’t fix this” is just as much to allow the healers to actually heal this limited damage rather than throw our hands up and go “well tank healing would be roughly balanced if more damage went out”

Every HS is a heal I don’t need to press, every blade combo is two heals I don’t have to press, depending on the situation intervention can be up to 3 heals I don’t have to press, BW has infinite potential, equilibrium is a heal I don’t have to press.

Removing these heals wouldn’t “fix” healers but it would be a marked improvement. Why is maintenance of tank gameplay more important here

[Rithy255]

Snip

asking why tanks gameplay and enjoyment is important is ridiculous, No one is saying that it isn't important for healers to feel valid in the party and that they should have more to do (frankly anyone who is against healers having more to do, just doesn't obviously play healers), but you act as if stuff like holy sheltron regen would actually fix your issues with healer design, they will barely make a difference, I mean did you heal old endwalker dark knights much? I know I didn't need to especially during boss fights that's because they have tons of mitigation and very little damage.

I feel like your the one throwing your hands up, by insinuating that we should just accept low damage output and nerf tanks so healers can have the fun while tanking becomes even more miserable for people like me who enjoy supportive cooldowns, because funnily enough I don't just play "paladin" to be a Mitigation and aggro bot, I play it to support and help my team partly as well. (which includes a bit of healing... surpise I want to help contribute a bit of healing as a "paladin" funny that...)

Sure changing damage profiles and only nerfing down some sustain aspects wouldn't fully fix healers or tanks in older content, but I don't really see why we should let the old content hold us back, it's not like old content is actually giving any attention or care for balance.

All I'm saying is that tanks and healers are both important, you act like we have to sacrifice these things (even skills like curing waltz that can add a little but of positioning nuance to dancer), for the sake of healers being balanced and all I've ever said is no we don't actually need to change too much outside of obvious over bloated self healing such as pld healing off the blade combos or warriors entire kit at this point.

Tanks could also take some healing pressure off healers, I think a difference a good tank should make is the fact they may save healer some gcd heals to help damage with good communication and teamwork, the issue is you never need to GCD heal because the entire lack of damage issue, with frankly both healers and tanks having way too many mit/heal skills, so theirs no actual skill expression of using these said cooldowns currently on tanks, but I want that i want to work together with healers as a tank in this team based game.

All I'm saying is that we can have our cake and eat it too in this situation, maybe we might have to make some changes and I fully agree on nerfing sustain, but I draw the line when your so insistent that every "free" healing cooldown on a non healer must go or you will not compromise or be happy.