fflogs and privacy

[VeyaAkemi]

Using ACT to generate logs violates the ToS.

FFLogs is not a grey area. It's a website and does not interact with the game client in any way whatsoever. It isn't a third-party tool by definition and visiting the website does not violate the ToS in any way, shape or form.

Yes, I was specifically avoiding using the name of the tool to talk about it because it's something that shouldn't be openly discussed in the forum, but I guess I shouldn't care about that.

And I say it's a "grey area" because, the way I see it, if someone is reliant on or frequently refers to FFLogs, it creates a strong implication they are generating and uploading logs themselves, or knowingly play with people who do, though I also don't think that's a bad thing, ToS in this game is more of a strong suggestion with an underlying of "Just don't get caught" anyway, and in general I'd advocate for an in-game DPS meter as is, to reduce player reliance on tools like ACT and so console players can also benefit from it.

[Collin_Sky]

Yes? I have seen people being hassled by it myself and other people (either in this thread or another) have pointed out it already happens. Whether either of us wants to think this perfect positive community is capable ofsomething soooo terrible is irrelevant.

I do not believe that someone fflogs'd you without prior context to make it worth their time doing.
Literally no one is fflogsing everyone as soon as they join normal modes.
Aside from that, like I said, you can tell someone is playing bad by observation, or even more accurately, ACT. It's not something you have to go to an external website to verify.

[BigCheez]

Yes, I was specifically avoiding using the name of the tool to talk about it because it's something that shouldn't be openly discussed in the forum, but I guess I shouldn't care about that.

And I say it's a "grey area" because, the way I see it, if someone is reliant on or frequently refers to FFLogs, it creates a strong implication they are generating and uploading logs themselves, or knowingly play with people who do, though I also don't think that's a bad thing, ToS in this game is more of a strong suggestion with an underlying of "Just don't get caught" anyway, and in general I'd advocate for an in-game DPS meter as is, to reduce player reliance on tools like ACT and so console players can also benefit from it.

Even Yoshi-P himself has mentioned ACT by name. I don't think it needs to be given Voldemort status.

Playing with someone who is logging or having someone send you a log file is doesn't violate ToS because you aren't using any third-party tools. Something like playing with someone who is using AM are where this would become grey area because in that scenario you're actively benefitting in-game from someone violating ToS on your behalf and it could be argued that you're using them indirectly yourself.

[Lilapop]

I do not believe that someone fflogs'd you without prior context to make it worth their time doing.
Literally no one is fflogsing everyone as soon as they join normal modes.
Aside from that, like I said, you can tell someone is playing bad by observation, or even more accurately, ACT. It's not something you have to go to an external website to verify.

Whether you believe it or not it's more likely than not happened. Yeah, anyone with eyes can tell a "bad" player. Doesn't change the fact that people will harass people because of poor logs.

[Collin_Sky]

Whether you believe it or not it's more likely than not happened. Yeah, anyone with eyes can tell a "bad" player. Doesn't change the fact that people will harass people because of poor logs.

and if logs were hidden by default you would instead be harassed with "why aren't they visible? obviously you're bad or they wouldn't be hidden"
The types of people you're worried about do not care because they are not logical people.

[TaleraRistain]

Literally no one is fflogsing everyone as soon as they join normal modes.

I've been in Discord voice chat with people doing exactly this. They go look up someone's logs when we're in Jeuno, for pete's sake.

Casual content is casual and it's a place where *everyone* can let their hair down. I hit my No Mercy a little late on a dungeon boss? It doesn't matter because it's not going to completely screw my performance like in a Savage raid. We have to have content where logs don't matter and players can relax and have fun with each other and endorsing the idea that someone hiding their logs is a red flag is exactly the sort of mentality we don't need to have. I can count on one hand in nearly 11 years of playing now where I felt a dungeon was taking excessively long, and usually that was with new people. And even if it wasn't, it's so rare that I don't even care. If we're not obsessed with numbers and colors and performance in casual content, then we can enjoy the experience of teamwork with others. And if that's not what you're looking for with roulettes and just want to "get it over with" as quickly as possible and are going to freak out if someone is less than perfect, then why queue up with randoms? I love the unpredictability of roulettes and the challenge of working with what I get when the game gods decide to give me a pear-shaped group.

[ForteNightshade]

Can't tell if you're intentionally being obtuse or if you actually are missing my point. Either way, I'll elaborate.

People always look at logs and ONLY ever react with helpful tips and tricks to improve, right? People never, ever, EVER, in the history of EVER have a go at someone with what they consider "bad" logs, even in normal content, right? This has never happened before in the history of FF14, right? No, no, and no. If you think any of that is true, you're painfully naive. Someone else in this thread alone has said logs are being judged in normal content, and I've even been a bystander to it myself. If people don't care about their performance they should 100% have a way to tick it to private so someone who's trying to save .1 of a second doesn't make a scene in random normal content.

However, the people who do care about it should keep it on. Ideally, personal choice. If someone doesn't care about their performance, little Timmy making fun of them in chat definitely won't make them care about it after.

By this logic, we should ban chat. After all, people harass in chat and say mean things, right? Doesn't matter if it's an exceedingly low number and the vast majority interactive normally or don't say anything at all. If any harassment happens whatsoever, ban the thing!

Most people using FFlogs only care about their performance or how your performance affects it, and whether or not they want to be in a party with you. In the latter case, they'll simply leave without saying a word. Do some people harass? Of course. Just like some people harass in PvP or shout chat or hunt trains. Some people are simply jerks. That doesn't mean everyone is. And very few people care about logs outside of high end content. Hence why you can parse 99 in a 24 man by simply having a pulse. Heck, I had someone in M2N a few months back deliberately wipe the party because he was trying to parse normal. The in game chat made fun of him. He didn't harass anyone, he got "harassed". That's in a random DF queue. Which highlights just how much of a meme people think parsing in normal content is.

The only reason you hear about harassment more regarding FFlogs is the same reason Tales of Duty Finder exists: people only talk about the memorable bad encounter they had, not the endlessly forgettable good encounters that are the norm.

I've been in Discord voice chat with people doing exactly this. They go look up someone's logs when we're in Jeuno, for pete's sake.

Operative word here is "discord."

Who cares what they're saying in a private discord call? So long as they aren't telling the person themselves or actively harassing them, if they wanna laugh about "omg look how bad his DPS!!!" who cares? That's no different than people without a parse laughing "LOL the WHM died AGAIN! They're soooo bad!!"

If you don't like your discord friends meme-ing on someone in a private call. Don't join the call?

[BigCheez]

Whether you believe it or not it's more likely than not happened. Yeah, anyone with eyes can tell a "bad" player. Doesn't change the fact that people will harass people because of poor logs.

It's a question of value vs risk. The value provided by log analysis vastly outweighs the potential risk of someone laughing at someone else's grey parse.

If we're making comparisons to the stalker plogon:

• FFLogs provides legitimate value that has a positive impact on people's gameplay experience. The stalker plogon does not.
• FFLogs does not provide anyone with information that can be used to inhibit your ability to to play the game. The stalker plogon does.
• The data stored on FFLogs cannot be used nefariously by the developers. The data stored by the stalker plogon can.*

*Remember that PlayerScope is still storing your data whether you opt out or not (it just isn't publicly available if you opt out) and we already know that the plugin was developed so that the developer could track who was undercutting him on the marketboard.

It's pretty simple from my point of view. FFLogs is a useful tool that doesn't have much potential to cause harm. The stalker plogon doesn't really do anything useful unless you're specifically looking for additional information about someone that you can use to harass them. You aren't supposed to be able to see someone's alts or their retainers. Given how salty some weirdos get over marketboard activity (or other benign in-game interactions), I don't think making this information publicly available is a good idea. It also enables a lot of other weirdo stalking behaviour.

[Collin_Sky]

Casual content is casual and it's a place where *everyone* can let their hair down. I hit my No Mercy a little late on a dungeon boss? It doesn't matter because it's not going to completely screw my performance like in a Savage raid. We have to have content where logs don't matter and players can relax and have fun with each other

As I have said previously, people who care about logs for things like that are not logical people.
No one with a brain cares about logs on anything beyond Ex and above. Almost every dungeon/alliance raid I do I get a purple or above even on a "bad" run because there are so many people doing this content that logs are a terrible metric to use as most players percentiles are inflated upwards.

and endorsing the idea that someone hiding their logs is a red flag is exactly the sort of mentality we don't need to have.

It will always be seen as such. Regardless of whether it is a good mentality or not. It's very much a case of "what are you trying to hide" and a person's brain will always gravitate to negative reasons first, especially if you don't know the person. Almost all the people in this thread who want logs hidden are self-proclaimed "bad" players so you're kinda proving my point.

[Exmo]

The people who see value in battle logs are not the people who are the target of humiliation and harassment over battle logs. In fact, the former group are the people performing the harassment. Part of the value of scraping logs is that it can be used this way.

It's not equitable that a certain plugin is deemed good because it is useful to some people despite being harmful to others.